S3E41: Just Shootin' The Shit

[00:00:00] Speaker A: This podcast is a collaboration between Costard and Touchstone Productions and the dads from the Crypt podcast. [00:00:06] Speaker B: It wouldn't be polite to kill him until he wakes up. Anyway. I think Winona should have a look at him first. Get off of it. He ain't gonna want her. Ain't nobody in Venona's whole ugly goddamn life ever wanted her. I'd like her to be the judge of that. Hell, if she do want him, I don't. I don't want no goddamn salesman in the family. Nobody cares who you want in this family. Besides, only salesmen ever come to this place, and this one seemed especially nice, for Christ's sake. And if this has been Nona's only chance at a little happiness, then I want to give it to her. Well, it ain't gonna happen. Cause he ain't gonna want her. Hey, you. Wake up. Wake up, dammit. He's up. [00:01:10] Speaker A: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the how not to make a movie podcast. I'm Alan Katz. Gil will join us shortly. Today, actually, it's just going to be the two of us shooting the shit and catching up, and you are invited to join us. When we started this podcast three years and 125 plus episodes ago, we wanted to tell the story of how making a dumb little horror movie, Bordello of Blood, wrecked not just a great creative partnership, but a friendship. As we've told it here, we weren't even supposed to make Bordello of Blood. We were supposed to make a whole other movie, Dead Easy, a feature film that Gil and I saw as our way out of horror and into the mainstream of moviemaking. Alas, Dead Easy died, and Bordello became the antithesis of the entire crip creative experience. We went from making a tv show and a feature film we loved and wanted to make to doing a movie literally nobody involved with it wanted to make. You can't beat the irony, though. Reuniting in order to tell the Bordello story for the podcast rekindled both my friendship with Gil and our creative partnership. Now here's the thing. Creative partnerships are different from ordinary friendships. Actually, they're very similar to marriages like marriage or any serious relationship. They require constant feeding and copious TLC to survive. Feed them that tender loving care, they'll prosper. But feed them bullshit or treat them carelessly, they'll die, and it won't be pretty. The clip we used as this episode's teaser is from the crypt episode death of some salesman. It captured a lot of our original creative relationships outside the box approach to stories and storytelling, characters and moviemaking in its entirety. That's why it is such a joy to be not only back in touch, but back in touch creatively. We're both working on a ton of different projects in a lot of different directions, some with each other, some not. And that's what we ended up talking about. Spoiler alert. Gil is working on some amazing feature film projects that I didn't even know about, and they all sound brilliant. I have a sneaking suspicion you'll feel exactly the same way about them. So how's the weather in Vancouver? [00:03:53] Speaker C: Unbelievable. I mean, it's sunny. It's warm. Yesterday it was so cold. I was wearing, like, a heavy jacket. Took the dog out. This morning wearing a heavy jacket. Came back, was getting warmer, went out for a meeting, and I took off the jacket. I've been walking around with just my shirt on. It's like, we got back to summer. I think it's. I think it changes on Sunday or Monday. [00:04:18] Speaker A: It officially changes. [00:04:21] Speaker C: Not officially, but I think we go back to bad weather by Sunday or Monday. But today it's gorgeous. It's sunny. It's beautiful. [00:04:29] Speaker A: What you mean is the weather is the weather forecast is for crappy weather starting on Sunday. [00:04:33] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:04:34] Speaker A: Oh, I said, like, well, they've got this scheduled, you know, in Canada they have. You know, but, you know, the. On a certain day, the bad weather, you know, the good weather ends and. Yeah, it's just the schedule in for crap weather the rest of the winter. [00:04:48] Speaker C: Right. [00:04:49] Speaker A: Yeah, I know. When I. The first season, I was on outer limits and it rained for 37 straight days. It sure felt that way. [00:04:58] Speaker C: Yeah. It's the wintertime up here. It's awful. It's just really awful. But it's. But the summer is unreal. I mean, indeed, this summer was gorgeous from may all the way till now. A couple of rainy days, but nothing much. Just beautiful. [00:05:15] Speaker A: As I recall when we shot Bordello of blood, I don't think we ever had to run for cover. [00:05:21] Speaker C: No, it was always too sunny, even at midnight. [00:05:25] Speaker A: That was our problem. That was our fucking problem. Oh, if we had. If it had just been raining, that would have been. That would have helped us. [00:05:32] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:05:32] Speaker A: In some. In some small way, that would have been. [00:05:35] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:05:38] Speaker A: Holy cow. You said you came from a meeting. You're working on a lot of stuff right now. What other things are you working on? [00:05:48] Speaker C: Well, I've got a couple of huge pictures, $70 million pictures. Two of them, maybe a third one, actually. They're financed, and I'm trying to put it, actually, it's kind of an interesting story. I'm trying to put a director on one of the episodes, one of the movies. I have a great script. I mean, just a great script. [00:06:10] Speaker A: Can you tell us anything about it? [00:06:14] Speaker C: It's action adventure. It's big title, bedlam. [00:06:20] Speaker A: Oh, good title. [00:06:21] Speaker C: Bedlam. And written by a friend of mine who I've been helping over the years and reading his material, and most of it is little horror stuff. Calls me up one day, he says, can I ask you to do me a favor? I said, yeah. Why? Because could you read a movie that I wrote? It's a little bit bigger. I go, how big? He says, I don't know. It's over 50 million. So I said, well, I don't think I'm doing those kinds of movies these days, but sure, I'll read it and just know I'm probably not going to want to make it, but I'll read it and tell you honestly what I think. And I read it, and it's a page turner. It's just great. And I give it to Jeannie, and from a woman's point of view, she goes, this is really exciting. So I call them up, and I go, you know something? I really like this script. I think I want to try to make this. I think it's 60, $70 million, though. [00:07:13] Speaker A: What did you. All right. You said it was a page turner, and Jeanette also liked it a lot. What makes it a page turner? [00:07:23] Speaker C: What makes it a page turner is the action and the interaction that the characters have with the action. But what really got me Washington, I love the characters, and I love the character interaction. And, you know, he describes it as if Tony Scott had directed usual suspects, because there's a great twist at the end that nobody sees coming. You don't expect it. And when you get to that twist, you go, of course, why not? It's one of those, and it's just great. And the action is just nonstop. So I told him, I'd like to make this. And he goes, great, I want you to make it. And I go, okay. I said, but here's the problem. I'm not going to give you any money for an option. I need to control the material, because I know what'll happen. I'll go out, I'll get a director, you'll talk to their manager, their agent, and the next thing I know is they're going to be negotiating for you against me, so I can't do that. He goes, I'm telling you, that's not going to happen. So I said, okay, well let me see what I can do. So I start noodling around and I give it to this independent group and they flip out over it and they go, we want to finance this contingent upon actors and also who the director is. So, you know, I start thinking, well, who's the director? I'm thinking of these big action movies and I haven't spoken to the guy who was my stunt coordinator and Keanu's double on Constantine. It's probably since we made the movie he's gone on to become a huge director of the wick movies that Keanu is in. And so I don't know. I have his phone number, I have his email. I send him an email and ten minutes later I get an email back saying, heres my phone number. Where have you been? Call me. So I call him and I tell him what I have and he said, send it to me. Ill read it right away. Well, three weeks pass, I dont hear from him. And I figured, okay, he didnt like it. And I get an email from him saying, ive been traveling a lot. I read the script, ill call you over the weekend. He never calls me over the weekend. I send him an email saying, hey, you got. You're probably a busy, busy guy. Why don't we set a time for this week before your dance card gets filled? I don't hear from him now it's two weeks I haven't heard from him. I'm figuring, fuck him. He either didn't like it enough or he's not going to do it. So I start thinking about other directors and I come up with this other director who's, I think, pretty good director. I don't want to say his name because the story I'm going to tell you. And so the financial people call his management and his agent and they make an offer to have him read it. They make an offer for a very substantial amount of money for him to direct, contingent upon casting and contingent upon a conversation. If he likes it with me, fine. Guy supposedly reads the script. We don't hear anything. We don't hear anything. And then about a week later his manager calls the financier and says, well, what are we doing now? And he goes, what do you mean? We're waiting to hear if your client liked it. Oh yeah, yeah. He read it. He loved it. He really loves it. And he sees a sequel. And I said, yeah, I see sequels too. That's why I'm interested. I'm only interested in franchise and so I go, well, you know, he says, finance says, well, it's dependent upon two things, the casting, but it's also dependent upon a conversation with Gil. So why don't we get a Zoom call set up for Gil and this director? Great idea. So this is on a Thursday. And I go, let's do it next Tuesday at 11:00 a.m. okay. Everyone agrees. Nobody sends me a Zoom invitation. It's Sunday, it's Monday. It's Tuesday morning. At 09:00 nothing. I call the financier, and I go, what the fuck is going on with these guys? He calls them up, can't get them on the phone, leaves a message. 11:00 comes. 11:00 goes, that meeting is blown. At that evening, the financier gets an email from the manager saying, oh, we were really busy today, and we didn't have time to set up the zoom call. Um, but we'll get back to when he's available for another Zoom call. So my attitude was, fuck them. But, you know, we didn't have anybody else at the moment. So I said, let's keep looking for somebody else and see what happens. Next day, we get an email saying, he can do it on Friday. Uh, he can. He can do it on Friday. Last Friday at, uh, I forgot what time. And I said, okay, let's do it. And so we. Again, no, nobody sends a zoom. And I go, I want the zoom today. I want to zoom set up today. If I don't get it by today, I'm going to book my time on Friday, and I'm not going to get on the phone. No, Zoom is set. No, nothing happens. So I talk to the financier, and I go send them an email rescinding the offer. We send him an email receiving the offer. He gets an email back saying, oh, we're so sorry. We really want to do this. He loves the script. He's dying to talk to Gil. And I go, nope, it's over. I'm done. I'm not talking to your client anymore. Now, these are well known agents and managers in Hollywood, and there's no reason. I thought for a while, well, maybe they're playing us against another offer, or maybe they got a deal at Netflix or a studio, and theyre using our quote, which was a really good quote. It was a bump from his last picture, to get more money from whatever. And I said to the financier, they could tell us that im a big boy. I know how this game works. If they said, we got an offer on the table, and were trying to figure it out and its going to be another week. Thats acceptable to me, I get it. But to just ignore us and then after the fact say I'm too busy, that we couldn't set up a Zoom call. A Zoom call would take them less than five minutes to set up. [00:13:54] Speaker A: It's the utter lack of manners and grace that's just so right. [00:13:59] Speaker C: So managers and agents, you'll be glad to know, haven't changed at all since when we were doing this 25 years ago. They're still the bottom of the barrel. And I told the financier, look, if these guys could do what we do, they'd be doing it and they can't. So they're, they get off on controlling talent, but only the talent that's at the cream of the crop. Do those agents get any respect and any, you know, any reaction from people like me? These guys? This director is a good director. He's made a couple of good movies. I liked his stuff, but he's not the end of the world. So this is what happens. That's all over. I'm talking to the financier and he goes, well, what do you want to do? And I said, well, you know something? I have an idea that I think is actually better. You know, my friend who was a sun coordinator on Constantine is now a huge action director. Why don't we go look for a second unit director and make him a big star? And I said, I have somebody in mind. The guy that did second unit for me on Valkyrie and has worked for Tom Cruise and has known Tom Cruise for a very long time. He was really very good. He did a really good job. And I pulled off a lot of first unit shooting for him to do because Brian couldn't, let's put it that way. And I said, so he worked with the top talent. And I watched him because I was with him on the set, on his set, and he's really quite good. He knew how to talk to talent. He knew how to take suggestions. He wasn't just an action guy doing second unit. He actually had some thoughts, and he's a pretty good guy. So the financial guy, I go look him up, see what you think. And if it's not him, I have another idea. I know the guy who did second unit for Mad Max, and he's australian, which is always good for me. I love the australian cruise. And so he looks up and he goes, the guy you're talking about who did Valkyrie, he's done almost all of Tom Cruise's action movies. I said, yeah, I know. He goes, well, God, he'd be fantastic. Is there any way to reach him? And I said, well, he's actually a good friend of mine. I probably haven't spoken to him in ten years, but I have his home number and I have his home email address. If you want, I'll send him an email. So I sent him an email. Don't get any reaction. I'm thinking, that's odd. I'm thinking, well, maybe he's in Europe shooting, or maybe he's in Australia shooting. So I give him 24 hours, still no response. And I go, you know, I'm going to call him up because it's not like him not to answer me. And so I call him up, answers the phone. He goes, Gail, I can't believe you're calling me. Oh, my God. How are you? I said, fine. I said, did you get my email? He goes, no. I said, I sent you an email yesterday. He goes, no, let me look. No, nothing here. I said, is this your email address? He goes, oh, God, I haven't had that email address in years, but it's a posted link to my new email address. Let me give you my new email address. And I said, well, you remember after we did Valkyrie, when we go back to the states, I said to you, you're really a good director. You did a good job on that second unit, and you did really good job working with the actors. And I was damn impressed. I said, we should be looking for a script for you to direct that I would produce. And so he loved that idea. And we looked, and of course, I didn't find anything, and I didn't have the financing. And he went back to doing second unit and still works on all these big Tom Cruise movies and others. And so when I told him this, he went, and I said, it's a really good script. I'm telling you. I can't believe you won't love it. Plus, I have the financing, but the financing is contingent upon two things, the casting, and I got to be able to get a completion bond on you. He goes, great, I get it. And so he reads the script, loves the script, and that's how we got our director for the show. [00:18:21] Speaker A: So where are you in the process now? [00:18:25] Speaker C: We haven't signed him yet. We're about to speak to the financiers, are going to speak to his legal people and get that paperwork all done, and then we're going to be casting it. They're going to make offers to cast with real money. [00:18:39] Speaker A: Excellent. It sounds like a great project. What kind of environment does it take place? Well, bedlam makes me think an insane asylum. Is it? [00:18:47] Speaker C: No, no, it's, I guess you could call it a heist movie, but it really isn't a heist movie. The basis of it, you think is a heist, but it's anything but a heist when you get to the end. Cool. That's why it's got the usual suspect kind of twist on it. Cool, cool, cool. But it's an action movie like Tony Scott would have made. So, you know, when this guy gave me the script, I read it. I was like, okay, what can I tell him that would help him make it better? And I couldn't think of anything. Wow. I said, I said, I. [00:19:25] Speaker A: Here are my notes. No notes. [00:19:27] Speaker C: The characters are really solid. It's very cool. It's really interesting, it's very castable. The pacing is, is great. I love the pacing. And the end is like this mind blowing twist that you don't even see coming. And then you go, of course. Why didn't I see that coming? Which is the best? And this is a guy who, over the course of many years, I've read his script, little horror movies, most of which are terrible. And I give him notes and I say to him, look, I'm giving you notes. I'm one man. I have an opinion. I could be right. I could be equally as wrong. If you like what I say, use it. If you don't like what I say, tell me to go fuck myself. And you know something? You're right. I, so he goes, if youll accept that as the basis of our conversation, then I will give you honest notes. And so weve been doing that for a long time. And a funny story is that years ago, I guess, I was living in LA even. Im talking to him on the phone about one of his scripts and im really kind of pissed off. And he goes, whats going on? Whats the matter with you? I said, well, im really pissed off. What are you pissed off about? I said, I'm really pissed off at Dantanus, you know, the restaurant on, been there for 100 years on Santa Monica Boulevard. He goes, why? I said, well, you know, I made a reservation and I got there and they kept me waiting an hour after the reservation time. I said, I've had it with them. I'm never going to go back. Fuck them. I've had enough of that shit. And he goes, well, why didn't you call me? And I go, call you? Why would I call you? He goes, don't you know who I am? I said, no, who are you? He goes, I'm the maitre d at Dantanus. I said, what? Get out of here. He said, no, I'm the maitre d. I've been doing this for years. That's my day job. [00:21:28] Speaker A: This writer, this horror writer who wrote bedlam, is the is or was is to this day. [00:21:39] Speaker C: This is years ago when I said this to him. So I said, you're kidding me. He goes, when you want to go to Dantana's, don't call them, call me. And if you tell me your time, you'll be seated within five minutes of your arrival, guaranteed. So I go, you know, like this is years ago. I go, sure enough. I walk in. Oh, mister Adler. Oh, mister Adler. Oh, mister Adler. Just give us a couple of minutes to set the table. I said, yeah, no problem. Five minutes, I'm seated. [00:22:07] Speaker A: It wasn't like in the middle of the kitchen or something. He just said, find a table for the guy. [00:22:11] Speaker C: Just anywhere. No, great table. And you know something? I would sit in the kitchen, I don't care. Food is great. So I've done that a few times. And they have a. They have a cappuccino ice cream, and they're very secretive about where they get the ice cream from. And it's the best cappuccino ice cream ever, right? So I asked it. I asked the restaurant, I go, you know, well, we can't give that out. I said, you can't give out. Where do you get the ice cream from? I'm not going to go into competition with you. No, we can't give that out. So now I know another maitre D, and his name was Craig, and he left Dantanus, and he opened up a restaurant called Craig's on Melrose. So I go to Craig's when he first opened up the restaurant, and I see that it has cappuccino ice cream on the menu. So I said, craig, where do you get this from? He goes, I'm not supposed to tell you. And dantanas, they had a strict rule. They would fire you if they would. I can get out of here. [00:23:10] Speaker A: You don't work at anymore, right? [00:23:12] Speaker C: So he goes, I'm going to tell you, but don't tell anybody. I tell you, this is like ten years ago. So I go, okay. He goes, there's an ice cream parlor in Alhambra that's been there since the 1930s, and it's called fossil men's. Fossil men's, fossil mins. And they have the ice cream. So what do I do? I get in the car with Jeanne and we drive down to Fosselman's and I get to Alhambra. And sure enough, there's this ice spring parlor. It looks like it was built in the thirties. I walk in, I feel like Im in the 1930s, except for the prices. Sure enough, I see all the flavors. I zero in on cappuccino. I buy a half a gallon of cappuccino, which probably cost me as much as a scoop of cappuccino at dantanas. And we take it home and we have cappuccino ice cream, like for a month, right? So now im no longer living in there in LA. I am in Vancouver. I cant get the cappuccino ice cream. So I go to Dantanus one time, this is also years ago, and Im actually stuffed. Im full. And I go to Jeannie. You know something? I think this is going to be the first time I cant order the ice cream. I just cant. Im just stuffed. And so were sitting there, were chatting, and all of a sudden the waiter comes over in this big scoop of cappuccino ice cream, and he puts in front of me and I go, no, no, no, we didn't order this. We didn't order this. I'm so stuffed. I can't, he goes, no, no, it's on the house. So I had a, I couldn't let it go. So I ate the cappuccino ice cream. [00:24:46] Speaker A: And you found room for it. [00:24:48] Speaker C: And this guy, you know, the maitre D, had made sure that I got the cappuccino ice cream. So this is the guy who wrote this script, right? So he writes another script, a horror movie. And he's given me two or three or four scripts in the last six months, all of them I have terrible problems with bedlam. I have no problems with, before he gives me bedlam, he gives me a horror movie because he knows I'm making a movie in Austria, a co production with a muslim director that I met and know from Abu Dhabi who's a pakistani passport holder. And we're going to make this movie in Austria right after the first of the year. We got the cast, we're short of a little bit of money, and the Austrians assure me that by the end of the year, we'll have it. So I'm looking at his little horror movie, thinking, well, maybe I can make this horror movie in Austria. But as I'm reading it, it's a bigger cast, bigger sets, it's a bigger deal, but I really quite like it. And I go, this is not a bad thing to make. I could. I think I can figure out how to make this, so. And I don't like the title. It's called inside. I think it's called bed one is better. Yeah. And so I said to him, what do you, what are you doing with this one? He goes, I don't know. What do you want to do with it? He goes, I want you to make my movies. So now when I'm talking to this director that it didn't happen, I'm getting a little nervous for two reasons. One, I don't want to be exposed. But more importantly, the financier has made an offer and he doesn't control the rights because he thinks I control the rights, which I don't. So I call up my friend and I go, listen, remember I told you at some point I got to have the rights. I really have to work out a deal with you through this weekend, which was last week, for the rights. And I have a piece of paper. [00:26:57] Speaker A: This is all very cutting edge stuff, forgetting. [00:26:59] Speaker C: Yeah. And it can't just be a letter of agreement that I control the rights. It's really got to have teeth in it. I got to have in there how much I'm going to pay you, because otherwise I have nothing. And if you have a problem with that, I'm going to stop and cancel this appointment that I have with this director, the zoom call, which never happened. So he goes, no, no, no. Don't cancel it. We're going to work it out. Tell me what you want to do. So I tell him what I want to do. And I said, look, this is what I don't want to have happen. And this is what I want to have happen. I want to have happen. Whatever we agree on. I don't want a year or two years from now you calling me up or bad mouthing me, saying I screwed you and you should have gotten x, y or z, but you didn't get that. So I want to make sure it's fair and I want to make sure you're happy. He goes, I know. I know that. That's why I'm prepared to do this. So literally, this is on a Friday. By Sunday, I have a signed letter, a three page letter for the rights. I have the control of the rights for 18 months. So that's how quickly that worked. And he said, look, I want you to make all my movies. They're the only producer I trust. You're the only guy who's ever told me the truth, always, even though sometimes it was hurtful. But you're right. So I said, what's happened to you in the last six months that, you know, I've read one script that I really love that's big. I love the little horror movie that I really like. And he goes, I don't know. I don't know. I think I've been trying to do this for 20 years, and it just must have clicked. So then three days later, he calls me up, and he goes, I got something else I want you to read. I think this is a slam dunk. I said, get out of here. What is it? This is another action picture. So I go, all right, let me read it. But I said, I've got two of your projects. One's a little horror movie, one's a big action movie. You may want to not put all your eggs in one basket with me because. What, are you kidding me? I'm not giving it to anybody else. You're my producer. I go, okay, send it to me, and we'll see. And I'll tell you the truth, because if I can't, if I don't love it, I'm not going to try to make it. So I read the script. Jeannie reads the script. The first 30 pages are very slow. But then, like, about page 35, it kicks in, and all of a sudden you're going, what is this about? And then you get. It's a lot of underwater stuff. And eventually you get about page 50, and you realize there's a discovery made underwater that explains, holy shit, that's really smart. And the rest of the movie is nonstop action. And he did the same thing at the last page in the movie. I started laughing because he sets up the sequel so beautifully. So I'm sitting here going, oh, my God, this is another franchise. So now I've got Bedlam, which I think I know is a franchise. He showed me an outline for the second one, whatever the. Whatever the action movie, whatever the horror movie is. Which also when I finished reading, I could come up with a. A franchise for it. And now he gives me this third one. His third one is called Salvage. So I show the financier who I'm working with on some other project, and he goes, I love the script. If you want to do it, we'll finance it. Same thing. Casting and completion bond. So they're jumping through. I mean, these guys are going nuts, saying to me, they want to get this thing cast. They want to get this thing cast. And I'm going, let's first close with the director. And he had his company put up a list of actors for the different roles, which some of them we're not going to get, but some of them we could very well get. And so here I am now with three projects that two are huge, one isn't that huge, but they're all really, really, really well written scripts. [00:31:16] Speaker A: Oh, cool, cool. And what is his name again? [00:31:20] Speaker C: I didn't give it to you. And I said to him, I said, you know something, as soon as we announce that we're making this picture or as soon as I close this deal with this director, because he's represented by some pretty powerful agents and managers, I said, you're going to be hounded by every agent and manager in town. And I said, for my money, you don't need any of them. You need a good lawyer. And he goes, I don't even need a good lawyer. I just have you. And I said, well, thank you, but you need a good lawyer. I said, but they're going to come after you like you're not going to believe. And he said, listen, I've been through this before when I was younger, I feel the same way you do. I don't like agents and managers. They're full of shit. And he said, so I'm not worried about that. And there you have it. [00:32:16] Speaker A: How old is he, this writer, who shall go nameless for the moment, I. [00:32:21] Speaker C: Think he's 45 or 50. He said to me, he's got a kid in college. Yeah, he's got a daughter in college in the valley. And I said, my God, you have a daughter in college. I think you're older than me. So, yeah, I mean, this works out great. And, you know, if I ever get back to LA, I'm definitely going to Dantanas. [00:32:49] Speaker A: Well, you'll definitely get a table. [00:32:52] Speaker C: Yeah, I definitely will. [00:32:55] Speaker A: Wow. Well, those are. I'm so glad I asked. [00:32:59] Speaker C: Yeah. You know, I haven't told anybody about these projects at all. I haven't mentioned them to anybody because, you know, they're still so tentative. I mean, you know, I need to. The irony is you usually don't have the money and you're looking for the money here. I've got the money. And these guys, you know, I've been working with them on something that they came to me with. This is a group that they came to me. They sent me an email, told me an idea, told me they had the rights to this franchise ip. And I said, okay, good for you. But if they sounded like I didn't believe them, then they wrote to me and they said they had a director, and I know the director. And I said to them, what do you mean you have this director? Well, we're talking to him and we're going to try to close a deal for him to direct. What do you think? And I said, I think that's a great idea. And I got off the phone with them. I called this director, and I said, you know anything about this project? And he goes, yeah, I'm supposedly going to direct it. They're talking to my lawyers and managers now about a deal. I said, you're kidding. How would you feel if I produced it and if you didn't, if you have somebody else in mind, I'm cool. You can tell me the truth. I don't want you to. I don't want you to be have a, you know. He goes, are you kidding me? I'd love it if you produced it. So I said, okay, well, maybe that'll happen. So within the next two weeks, I close a deal with these guys to produce their movie that they're financing, and we start working on it. And the script is atrocious. So we got to basically throw out the script, start out a new script. Now we're getting very close, but that's how it started. And that was about maybe eight or nine months ago that I first met these guys. And the relationship with them just gets better and better. I mean, it's very fluid and I really enjoying working with them. [00:35:00] Speaker A: Three years ago, would you have imagined yourself this busy with projects? [00:35:06] Speaker C: I probably would have liked to be this busy with projects, but I probably thought those kinds of projects are over because I don't know anybody at the studios anymore and I don't really want to do a studio picture. Constantine has been talk about remaking, not remaking, but doing a sequel to Constantine. And about a year ago, I suppose they called me, and I know Keanu really wants to do a sequel if they could come up with the story. And nobody's been able to come up with the right story, but since Keanu wants to do it, they're trying. And, you know, I don't know anybody over at Warner Brothers anymore. And I said, you know something? I don't think, I don't think, I don't think, I don't think that's for me. I don't think I want to get involved in that. It was a most of the, most of my time at Warner Brothers was very difficult. And so I don't really want to do that again. I'd rather do things wherever I have really total control. And im dealing with people who are collaborators and not just looking for scapegoats. And so I said no to Constantine, if you ever get it right, which they still havent gotten it right, even though there have been announcements galore about it. And so now Im dealing with these guys who seem to have the money, seem to have the right attitude about everything, and are really very excited that I've been able to bring them some really talented people. [00:36:41] Speaker A: So 2025 is stacking up to be a really terrific year. [00:36:46] Speaker C: It could be. It could be. We'll see. I mean, these things, as I say, you never know. [00:36:53] Speaker A: Oh, of course. [00:36:53] Speaker C: Oh, gosh. And so we'll see. It's looking, you know, it's looking good. [00:37:00] Speaker A: Well, when, when we're allowed to know the name of this writer, we should have this writer on the podcast. [00:37:08] Speaker C: Oh, you'll love him. He's very. [00:37:10] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. It sounds like he would be just fun. And his story, spending all those years doing the script writing as a second job and being as prolific as he's been. [00:37:24] Speaker C: Wow. You know, the last time I spoke to him, I said, you know, I got to ask you a question. Where did these ideas come from? I mean, like bedlam, where did you get that from? Because I never in a million years would have thought of this. And he goes, well, you know, I had this idea, something I wrote ten years ago, and I liked how it started, but I didn't know where it went. And then I just had an idea during COVID and I thought, you know, maybe I should write this. And he said, it's taken me a while, but now I have the script. I said, but where did it come from? Where'd the idea come from? I'm like amazed, you know? And with the other, this other one, salvage, I'm thinking, where did you come up with this cockamamie idea? It's so cool. And you don't really, he said to me, you're not going to because I said to him, I've read the first 30 pages. They're really slow. So he goes, I know, I know. You'll tell me what to do. We'll fix it. But keep reading. Do me a favor, keep reading, because when you get a little bit further, you're not going to see something coming, I don't think. And when you get to that, you're going to want to read more exactly what happened. And then I couldn't wait to get to the end, I give it to Jeannie. Exactly the same thing. She couldn't wait to get to the end. And when I got to the end, and he sets up the sequel so imaginatively, and that's really what it is. It's totally imaginatively that I'm sitting there going, wow, what's he thinking about for the sequel? Because I have two or three ideas that are really kind of way out there, but could happen. [00:39:09] Speaker A: Bedlam and salvage. [00:39:11] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:39:12] Speaker A: And what's the other one? [00:39:14] Speaker C: Inside? But I told him, we need to change the title, and he sent me a few titles, and I said, yeah, you're getting closer. Not there yet, but we got. That's a better title. [00:39:23] Speaker A: There's the other project that you're working on as well. Not with the writer who shall go nameless, right? Isn't there an additional project? [00:39:31] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:39:32] Speaker A: Okay. And what's that one called? [00:39:34] Speaker C: Fractal. [00:39:37] Speaker A: These are all fascinating names. Sorry, aside from inside. [00:39:41] Speaker C: Well, fractal is this one that, you know, I I did this podcast. Um, not a podcast. I did this. It's an app. It was an app. I don't know if it still exists. A friend of mine said a friend of his started an app it misses about maybe before COVID or around Covid. And he said he has an app, and the. They talk about different subjects, and he would like you to come on and talk about whatever you want to talk about. So I said, what does he want me to talk about? Who's the audience? So they have 150 people on this app. It's all audio, but you see little. Little pictures of them, and they ask you questions. So I'm talking to these people, and it's odd, because most of them just want to talk about their career. And I have to say to them at one point, listen, I'm on the phone with you for an hour. You should take advantage of having me on the phone and ask me questions that might help you with what you're trying to do as opposed to telling me all about your life. It would be more advantageous for you if you told me or asked me about this, that, or the other. And so what do they do? They continue telling me about their life, except this one guy, and he keeps asking me these really interesting questions. Like, I'm like, holy shit, this is a good question. So he asked me about three questions, and I said, come on, I got to ask you a question. Who are you? He tells me his name, and I go, where are you? He said, I'm in Abu Dhabi. I said, you're in Abu Dhabi. What time is it? He goes, it's 03:00 in the morning. I said, it's 03:00 in the afternoon, where I am. What are you doing on the phone with me at 03:00 in the morning? And he starts laughing. He goes, what? Are you kidding me? I would get up anytime to be able to have a conversation with you. So I finished the event. I hang up, and I'm thinking to myself, I got to get a hold of this guy. I want to know more about him. So I research it. I get him on the phone, and I go, so tell me a little bit about you. And he goes, well, I'm pakistani. I have a pakistani passport. I live in Abu Dhabi. I'm 30 years old, I'm not married, and I want to be a filmmaker. I said, so what have you done? He goes, well, I made a ten minute movie. I said, you made a ten minute movie? Can I see it? Yeah. So he sends me the ten minute movie, and I watch the ten minute movie, and I watch it a couple of times, and I go, there are no shots that I find missing. The storytelling is fantastic in ten minutes. He's created empathy. He's created fear. He's created a relationship and conflict. And I'm sitting there going, I want to know more about this guy. So I call him, I write to him. I go, I really liked your ten minute movie. Do you also write? And he goes, yeah. And I go, well, what do you got? He goes, well, I have a script. It's a three character script. And I'm thinking now, well, you know, the disappearance of Alice Creedde by Jay Clarkson, english guy a few years back was a movie, and I love that movie. It was three characters in a room. Scary as hell. So I'm like, oh. So he says, yeah, if you want, I'll send you the script. I read the script, and I go, this is really scary. And it's almost like, what do you call it? Groundhog day? Action keeps repeating, but differently. And so it's kind of a mind bending kind of thing. And so I say to him, well, you know, one of the things I'm really interested in doing with my life now is helping young filmmakers, and I think I'd like to help you with this. Would you? Would you want me to produce it, or do you have a producer? And he goes, are you shitting me? You want to produce my movie? I said, yeah, done. So I think about it for about a couple of weeks. I said, I got to talk to you about something else. That's really very difficult for me to talk to you about. And I don't mean to be offensive, and if you find it offensive, please accept my apologies, but I have to ask you some questions that are really difficult for me to ask, because. What's that? I go, well, you said to me, you live in Abu Dhabi. Are you. Are you Catholic? No. Are you Muslim? Yeah. Silence. Is that a problem for you? He asks me. I go, not at all. He said, what, are you Catholic? I said, no. Waits a while. He goes, are you jewish? I said, I am. I said to him, is that a problem for you? He goes, no, not at all. So it's a year and a half now since we had that conversation. We've had many conversations since. I almost feel like he's an adopted son of mine. And, you know, we're sort of like. The two of us are really looking forward to meeting in Austria and working together on this movie. [00:44:39] Speaker A: This will be the first time that you actually meet in the flesh. Should you. Should you get the austrian government finished with the financing? And, yeah, they pull the trigger. That would be awesome. [00:44:51] Speaker C: And my austrian partners who were raising this money basically said originally they wanted to have it in the can by Christmas because they wanted to have a teaser trailer for the Berlin Film Festival in February. That doesn't seem to be going that quickly. So they said, well, we should have it financed and done by the end of the year and we'll have a teaser trailer to give to show it can, which is fine. So I said, great, keep going. We have two of the three actors cast in that little movie. Can you say who they are there? Nobody you would know. There are two Austrians. Okay, well, maybe one is a UK. I think one is a UK and one's an Austrian and the other one will have to be an Austrian. But, you know, this little horror movie, they don't. They're not contingent upon casting, they're contingent upon good storytelling and who's making the movie and getting the scares. And I think this guy is good. I've said to him, you should be thinking about and writing your next movie. Because when we make this movie and it comes out and even if it does, okay, other people are going to be interested in you and we should have a script ready for you. Whether I'm involved or not, we should have a script ready. And I'm prepared to help you with that script if you want me to. [00:46:16] Speaker A: That's wonderful advice. You have something in your pocket. [00:46:21] Speaker C: Yeah. So he told me a bit of a story. And I said, that's a good, that's a good basis. I don't have enough to react to, but keep going. I think you're on the right track. So he's working on, you know, what might be next. So it's kind of interesting, you know, I'm trying to discover these new young filmmakers. [00:46:42] Speaker A: Are we allowed to know his name? [00:46:44] Speaker C: Faisal Hamshi. [00:46:46] Speaker A: Faisal Hamshi. This young filmmaker from Abu Dhabi. Yeah, Faisal Hamshi. [00:46:53] Speaker C: And as soon as, as soon as we get this thing financed, and I know it's closed and we have our, you know, our dates for prepping, we might want to have him on, I. [00:47:04] Speaker A: Would think it is. We must have Faisal Hamzy on, and. [00:47:10] Speaker C: Then we'll have him on early on, and then we'll have him after we finish the movie to talk about the experience, the process. [00:47:19] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Positively. Hey, why wouldn't we? [00:47:24] Speaker C: Yeah, so, you know, I'm working with some really talented people. I'm really working with people I admire and really want to help and I really believe in. [00:47:35] Speaker A: And so it's like, and on projects that sound like a lot of fun, that are worth the time and the energy and just the emotional adventure, well. [00:47:49] Speaker C: The big action adventure movies, I think, could go through the roof. I really think they could work really, really well. And I think the sequels could work really, really well. So I'm interested in franchise, and I'm interested in small, emotional movies, and I'm interested in new young filmmakers. And so out of the blue, I found Faisal. And out of the blue, I guess 15 years ago, I found this writer who's Maitre D at Dantanis. [00:48:24] Speaker A: Well, it's funny. On our next episode. [00:48:27] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:48:28] Speaker A: I think we're going to be talking to an actress and producer named Leah Philpott, who we met at the Chattanooga Film Festival. [00:48:38] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:48:39] Speaker A: And Chris, they had made a movie that was being shown there. Leah was just in town with that whole group from Oklahoma City at the North Hollywood Film Festival. [00:48:56] Speaker C: Right. [00:48:57] Speaker A: And they had a couple of shorts, and they invited me to go see that evening of shorts. And I got to say, you walk in the door, you think, okay, this is 2 hours that I'll never get back. And I can't think of a single one of those seven shorts. I saw that. Washington. Less than excellent. Yeah, there are, man. And Leah and her group. Lee, the short that Leah produced, it fucking blew me away. [00:49:26] Speaker C: Well, you know, I'm really good. [00:49:28] Speaker A: It's really good. The acting was great. The shooting was fantastic. [00:49:32] Speaker C: I'm realizing that there are a lot of young people out there that just don't have the opportunity, and they don't know where to go because, you know, even when we did it, you could make an independent movie. You still can go to festivals with an independent movie. But it's hard to get into Sundance. It's hard to get into the New York film festival. [00:49:50] Speaker A: It's expensive, too. [00:49:52] Speaker C: Yeah. And so those doors are kind of closing. So then where do young people have an opportunity to do something and have it seen? And so they can get. They can become the next Brian de Palma or Marty Scorsese? Because those guys, you know, when I started out with Brian, you know, he was making tiny movies. Hi, mom. Bobby de Niro. Greetings about, you know, getting a notice about the draft and. And Marty was doing the same thing, and. But people would recognize that and distributors would look at it now they're too busy, you know, and the streamers are. Besides, their management's changing every day, so you don't know who to talk to. They're. They're over the. They're over themselves with, you know, they want to. They want star. They want star directors, star actors, star, star, star. So rarely do they have an opportunity. And I'm finding that I don't. I don't know really how I found these people or why I'm finding these people, but I'm really excited about Faisal's work and this writer's work and the. [00:51:05] Speaker A: Cappuccino ice cream at antennas. [00:51:07] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:51:07] Speaker A: At Fosselman's, Fossilman's. [00:51:09] Speaker C: But don't tell anybody. Don't tell anybody, but go down to Fossilmans. You'll love it. It's like you walked into 1930. [00:51:18] Speaker A: You know, when I pitched this idea to you yesterday about, we're just shooting the shit, you know, I thought I had a couple of questions I wrote down. The first one was, what are you working on? And, wow, I got the best answer I could possibly hope. Really and truly, I got a better answer than I imagined I was going to get. I am so glad I asked because really you are working on some cool stuff. You know, I'm fucking busy out the wazoo with the podcast. We just haven't had a chance. We were working on our tv show together. Are you afraid? And that just seems the tv business is just fucked up beyond all words. And it's just you can't get anything done. And so that kind of, I wouldn't say it fell by the wayside. It's lying in wait. And what I'd like to do at some point early next year, given the time, is to reimagine it as a podcast, because fiction, and especially horror fiction podcasts, are really gaining a lot of. [00:52:23] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:52:23] Speaker A: Getting a bigger and bigger audience, and then we just go back and do it as a tv show, except we don't have to explain it to them. [00:52:30] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:52:30] Speaker A: Everybody will know. [00:52:32] Speaker C: The stuff that's available now, for the most part, is just awful. I mean, I tried to watch a new show on one of the networks last night with Don Johnson's in it, and it felt like it was a poor man's remake of the love Boat. [00:52:49] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:52:50] Speaker C: And it was awful. I mean, it was awful. And then I watched another one last night, a medical show, also awful. I mean, and then I watch, you know, a lot of stuff on the streamers, and I can't get into 20 minutes. By 1015 minutes, I'm done. It's just awful. It's not about anything. They don't care. And it's like, why are they funding this? Why are they buying this? And they're just buying it to have to use, because they need to feed. [00:53:21] Speaker A: The kitty and they need to fill that maw. That was the problem. [00:53:25] Speaker C: They all got that, and yet they all want to raise their prices and remove the issue about, oh, you pay for it, but then everyone in the family can see it now. They want to charge for that, and it's like, your stuff is crap. I wouldn't even bother getting half of the cables, half of the streamers, plus. [00:53:47] Speaker A: There are ad tiers now anyway. Yeah, and so they're having it both ways, and they're still visionless. Yeah, well, you pointed out earlier, if they could do what we do, they'd be doing that instead. And it's because they can't do what we do that they're standing in the way of people like us doing what we do. [00:54:11] Speaker C: Yeah, but. But I consider, I'm concerned not so much about us, but more about young people. How do they break in? How do they. How do they get it done? How do they get going? Yeah, so that's kind of what I'm interested in doing now. I'm interested in helping talented young filmmakers from wherever they are, how, you know, whatever walks of life. I mean, you know, here you got a Muslim and a jew making a movie together, and the two of us laugh about it, you know, and we. And he's a 30 year old kid, you know, so it's. [00:54:48] Speaker A: When we create stuff together, we're not hurting each other. [00:54:53] Speaker C: Right. What was the second question you were going to ask that we never got to? [00:54:59] Speaker A: You know, it's. It's not even. It's not even relevant. You know, I thought, well, we can always talk about the. The world that we're living in, but this was so much more interesting. [00:55:10] Speaker C: Well, we can talk about the world we're living in, too, but it's not. It's not as. [00:55:14] Speaker A: That's for. That's for another conversation. We've been talking for almost an hour. More to the point, this was. I had no idea what we were going to get today, and I could not be more delighted. Mostly because I sat here quietly the whole time. You did all the talking for a change. Wow. What a blessed relief that was. [00:55:36] Speaker C: Well, for me, it's all exciting stuff. I mean, I look at these projects and I go, are they going to fall by the wayside? And I'm going, no, I got this. I got that. And this is happening and that's happening. [00:55:46] Speaker A: They cannot fall apart, because now we all need to know what those two is. Are. [00:55:50] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:55:51] Speaker A: Just now I'm aching to know. Well, hey, thank you for answering my question. And it was great to catch up just because we haven't had a chance to catch up, but I just haven't had it. Had. I haven't had a chance to ask you in any great detail what you are working on in. My God, I'm really. I'm so thrilled. [00:56:12] Speaker C: Well, I probably wouldn't have spoken about it if we did it much earlier on. It's just that the austrian thing is real and it's happening. And now it looks like these other pictures are real. And you know how I am. I don't like to talk about things until they're real. And all of a sudden, I'm sitting here going, holy christ, these are really happening. [00:56:34] Speaker A: Both of us coming out of comedy. We both know timing's everything, man. And on that bombshell, yes. Thank you, Gil, and thank you, everybody. We'll see you next. We'll see you next week with Leah Philpott. And we'll talk more about independent filmmaking next time, because that really is something that we're both very, very passionate about. [00:56:57] Speaker C: And if you guys have any questions about independent filmmaking that you'd like us to answer or talk about or explore with you, please let us know. [00:57:07] Speaker A: Send an email. I think there's a comment section here. We're going to put one in. Yeah, ask away. We delighted to impart what's inside our. [00:57:19] Speaker C: Heads into yours, which is usually not much, but maybe you'll take it with a grain of salt and it'll mean something to you. [00:57:26] Speaker A: Buy more salt. [00:57:27] Speaker C: Yeah. Anyway, thanks, everybody. [00:57:29] Speaker A: Thank you, everyone. See you next time. The how not to make a movie podcast is executive produced by me, Alan Katz, by Gil Adler, and by Jason Stein. Our artwork was done by the amazing Jody Webster and Jason. Jody, along with Mando, are all the hosts of the fun and informative dads from the Crip podcast. Follow them for what my old pal the crypt keeper would have called terrific crypt content.