S3E46: Soap Gets In Your Eyes

[00:00:00] Speaker A: This podcast is a collaboration between Costard and Touchstone Productions and the Dads from the Crypt podcast. The Guiding Light, presented by Ivory Liquid. The dishwashing detergent that's white, pure, gentle enough to be named Ivory. Hello and welcome to another episode of the how not to Make a Movie podcast. I'm Alan Katz. Don't you just hate it when soap gets in your eyes? Nothing burns quite like it. Well, today we're going to talk about acting, but a very specific kind of acting. The kind they do in soap operas like the Guiding Light, General Hospital, All My Children, as the World Turns, or like in the soap opera aimed at people like me, Dark Shadows. It really is a particular kind of acting and it requires a particular skill set to pull it off successfully. Not every actor can. They get self conscious about it or they judge it more fool them. Bonnie Forward grew up in a showbiz family. The biz. It's in her DNA and it led her into coaching soap opera actors, honing that particular skill set. This is something that Bonnie's been doing for 35 plus years now. Back when Bonnie started in this particular business. She'll explain all of this in far greater detail. Shortly, there were 17 soap operas on the air across various networks. 17. All with large casts and new characters coming and going on a regular basis. There were a shit ton. That's the technical term of regular acting gigs in the world of soaps, if you were open to having one of them. Now, the key word here is regular, as in regular job. For most actors, the last thing acting is or ever will be is a regular job. Ironically, that irregularity is one of acting's big attractions. Same goes for writing and directing and every other job involved in making movies and TV shows. Most of us in showbiz, we can visit 9 to 5 World, but we can't live there and be happy. It's just a fact. Showbiz is freelance most of the time. Hey, you might score a long running TV show like Tales from the Crypt. Then for a couple of seasons, depending on ratings every year, you might work for six to eight months or so on a regular basis. You can pay your bills regularly, plan a little and budget your shit. Hey, if you're a star, you could even grow a pile of five you money. Well, it used to be you could do that. It ain't the case anymore. The only people making piles of you money these days is Netflix. Don't get me started back in the day when you could make some very good long term money in the film and TV business. It was still a long shots, long shot. But there was a whole group of actors who actually found steady nine to five acting jobs five days a week, like it was office work. Sure, occasionally there'd be a crunch here or there where people had to stay late, but 90% of the time, it was a great job that paid well doing something these people all loved. Some spent their whole careers in soap operas. Many spent long enough to accrue piles of fuck you money. And many of those actors all did it flying acting, I mean, under the radar, doing soap operas. And pretty much nothing but a few transitioned into primetime or cable or feature films. Crypt alums, Brad Pitt, John Stamos, Demi Moore, Laurence Fishburne started in soap operas. So did Morgan Freeman, Leonardo DiCaprio, Mark Hamill, Nathan Fillion, and Julianne Moore. Hey, you know, maybe so getting in your eyes isn't such a bad thing after all. I wonder how long this would take to work. Where does the Bonnie Forward story begin? Now, you've. You've been teaching acting in Los Angeles for a very long time. [00:04:19] Speaker B: Yeah, I've been teaching acting for 35 years. I live in Ventura now, so I teach generally out of my home. [00:04:28] Speaker A: In. In that sense, the pandemic was good. [00:04:31] Speaker B: Well, kind of. Not. Kind of not. [00:04:38] Speaker A: You know, it was a mixed bag because the way I look at it, podcasting really exploded because of the pandemic. [00:04:48] Speaker B: That's why I created the show. [00:04:51] Speaker A: So it was a terrible thing. But as with life, lemons you make. All right, lemonade. Make lemon daiquiris. [00:05:00] Speaker B: Yes. [00:05:02] Speaker A: Make lemon mousse. [00:05:05] Speaker B: Make lemon cello while you're at it. It worked out for me. [00:05:13] Speaker A: It. It has. You know, hey, this is just how it is. [00:05:18] Speaker B: Yep. [00:05:19] Speaker A: And you've specialized in soap opera. [00:05:23] Speaker B: I did for the. At the beginning of my career. Yeah, I did. I studied acting and then I studied directing. Of course. I've told you before, I grew up in a show business family. My father was. [00:05:35] Speaker A: We're going to go back to all that momentarily. I just wanted to kind of have a little bit of a foretaste of what's to come. [00:05:44] Speaker B: Yeah, there you go. Yeah. So I started because I had. I grew up in the industry. I had seen, Seen a lot of damage done in, as we've discussed before on my show, you know, Hollywood is a very slippery snake, and one has to be very careful. [00:06:09] Speaker A: It's a company town. [00:06:11] Speaker B: It is. And it is a very small town. It's a big city, but it's a very small town. And when you cross somebody I don't care if it's a casting director or a director or anything else. If you're not really famous, it can be. It can end you. And you have to be extremely careful because everybody in the business talks. And people don't think they do, but they do. And you think, well, I tried out for let's go Modern Day. I tried out for swat, and. And yet they don't want me on any ABC shows or NBC shows or. I mean, I can't spit anywhere in this town without, you know, somebody putting a hammer down on me. And it's because there's a lot of cross casting. There's a lot. [00:07:10] Speaker A: Indeed. Hey, see what happens if you piss off the Marvel Universe. They. This one casting office cast them. [00:07:18] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:07:18] Speaker A: And they, you know, that universe really comes in through that. That casting office's front door. [00:07:25] Speaker B: Yeah. And it cannot. It doesn't necessarily have to be something that you actually did. It could just be that you're green and you didn't know how to behave in front of a casting director. I had a student once who said that he got very upset because he went in to audition for a soap opera, and the soap opera casting director got up and turned her back to him and went over to some filing cabinets and was going through them, and he. What. Didn't know what to do. And this is before everything was taped to be sent off to somebody else. And it was a, you know, it was obviously was live him and her and. Or he and she. And he just mentioned a couple of words to her about questioning, why did you turn your back on me when I'm in the middle of auditioning for you? And she. That was it. That's it. That was it for him. And he came to me in class and he asked for a little spare time before the class started as to why that would have happened. And I said, did it ever occur to you that a lot of people who watch soap operas are cooking in the kitchen or they're, you know, not watching the tv? You know, you're not in a movie theater. And that was why she did that. She wanted to see what you sounded like when she wasn't looking at you. It had never dawned on him. Never dawned on him. [00:08:59] Speaker A: It was part of the audition. [00:09:01] Speaker B: Correct. And he thought she was being extraordinarily rude. And he, like I say, he didn't outright say, you're being rude, but he implied it. And that was the last time he was ever brought up to audition for that soap opera. Ever. Yeah. And then you get Somebody like Shemar Moore, who went on from the Young and the Restless to be this super TV star and always credits his beginnings at the Young and the Restless. And he went in nervous, so nervous, because he was so young and he was. He just. He didn't know. He was so green and he didn't know what was happening. And, oh, my God. Da, da, da. And they were like, that's our Malcolm. That's the guy we want. So it worked out for him. [00:09:44] Speaker A: It's a funny thing. I've. When I was doing film and tv, I cast lots and lots and lots and lots of actors, but I never cast a single one of them to act. I didn't want any of them to act ever. Because in the theater, yes, you must act because the person in the last row must see and hear you. But here on the sound stage, the camera is right in your face. [00:10:12] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:10:13] Speaker A: It sees everything. And if you act, it'll see that, too. So for the camera, I wanted actors to be themselves in a sense, but as honestly and as nakedly as they possibly could be. All right, we give them a different name. Some. Some dialogue to speak. But really in. From the. From the point of view of a writer, producer, they were successful if. If they were emotionally honest. [00:10:50] Speaker B: Well, in scripts written out for you, you know when to take beats. You know when to take the difference between a beat and a pause. You know? [00:10:58] Speaker A: You know, you know what it's filled, it's filmed. And a lot of those pauses, you know, they can be shaped and they will be shaped in post production. [00:11:09] Speaker B: Yes, yes. [00:11:10] Speaker A: And so you. You can be as Shakespearean as you like in the moment. Just understand that the actual filming or taping process is not where the real creative stuff happens in this particular medium. It happens in post production. [00:11:26] Speaker B: Exactly. Exactly. And that's why I got into soap opera, was because you're the same person. You're the same person every time you shoot a show. But your. Your character change, changes. I mean, your character is the same, but your character is constantly evolving and changing. So that's a huge difference. You're not playing, you know, Spartacus and where you don't change, you know, I mean, it's like this is a show that shot five days a week and sometimes four, sometimes two shows in a day. You're talking about 70 pages of dialogue. And that's what intrigued me, because I noticed that. And what you do with that script when you're finished is you just throw it in the trash and you pick up the next script for the Next day, and you go home and you memorize and you come back. And of course, not all soap operas, soap actors work every day, but the bottom line being that your storyline evolves all the time one day in real time. [00:12:29] Speaker A: And really. So the story is happening in real time, and it's being kind of created in real time, too. [00:12:33] Speaker B: Exactly, exactly. And that many pages of dialogue is just mind blowing. So you have to be able to jump into character and jump out and jump in and jump out. And that's very. That's not easy. You get a lot of. They've had over the years because I've always worked with the Bold and the Beautiful and the Young and the Restless because William J. Bell and Lee Phillip Bell were my mentors. And so that's how I got introduced. I mean, you know, might as well start at the top, Right? And so what would happen is that I would see the level of integrity required by these actors, and I would see these incredibly gifted, skilled movie stars and TV stars start to come on the show for little guest appearances. And they couldn't do it. It was too much because they were used to. Cut. Let's take two. Let's take three, let's take 10, let's take 15. You know, stuff like that. And that doesn't work in a soap opera. You got to do it in one take. [00:13:37] Speaker A: It's a particular skill set. [00:13:38] Speaker B: Exactly, exactly. And so. [00:13:41] Speaker A: And it's got some technical challenges that either some actors can do and some actors can't. [00:13:48] Speaker B: Exactly, exactly. So if you can do that and you can blend in and realize you are working with a cast that is very large, but these people are your family. You see them every time you go to work. So there. There's that difficulty, too, when you've got TV and film actors who come in and go, well, I'm just, you know, I don't want to be friends with these people. I just want to do my job and leave, which is a very TV film attitude. This is more like theater in the sense of collaborative family where everybody works together because that's what makes it look good. [00:14:26] Speaker A: I'm going to glom onto the word family. Take us back to yours. You said you came from a showbiz family. How so, Bonnie? [00:14:35] Speaker B: Well, my father put jazz on the radio in San Francisco for the very first time in 1938. [00:14:41] Speaker A: What was his name? [00:14:43] Speaker B: Robert Forward. Bob Forward, also known as Bob Forward. And not to be confused with my eldest brother, whose name is also Robert Forward. He's just a junior, and he, when he graduated From Stanford, he decided that he wanted to go into radio. And so there was a state they hadn't done jazz on radio before. So he pitched an idea to a station in San Francisco and said, listen, I'd like to put jazz on your station. Because I guess they were. I don't remember what they were doing before that. I don't know. I missed 1938. I was hardly. I wasn't even. God knows what lifetime I was in, but I certainly wasn't then. And so he, It's a very funny story. When he started, the program manager came to him and said, this isn't, this isn't. No, this isn't going to work. After he'd been on the air for a while and they, then the guy said to him, this. There's. I don't think there's anybody listening to this stuff. You know, it's just. I don't know. And so my father said, okay. And he goes, so I don't know if it's going to work out. My dad was like, okay, well, give me a couple days and, you know, we'll, we'll keep doing it. Because he was doing like from 11 o'clock at night until 2 o'clock in the morning or something like that. So he went back to his apartment and he, he wrote himself a fan letter and it was two pages long from a gal named Betsy Johnson and not to be confused with the designer. And he, he went on, it's all typewritten, two pages. He went on and on and on and on about how she and her girlfriends, they live in Oakland and Oakland Hills, and they all get together ev free night and they have their drinks and they listen to him and they're just devoted and they just fall in love and they do blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And mailed it to the station. [00:16:44] Speaker A: And. [00:16:44] Speaker B: The manager saw it and came in and said, you're not gonna believe this, and waving the letter, you're not gonna take a look at this. Oh my God, you have a huge fan base of women. That's what that Stanford Educational get. Yeah, but then the war broke out. And the war broke out. And so that was that. And then he decided to. He was captain of the Army Air Corps and decided to, when the war was over, to settle. He and my mother settled in Los Angeles. She was from San Francisco, he was from San Diego. Los Angeles was the entertainment capital of the world. So there you go. And then I was born many years after that. And I. Because he was. Then he went on, I Mean, he went on to do a lot of things. I mean, he did radio. He brought six struggling radio stations to the top in Los Angeles. He then became vice president of abc. And then he. He was sort of. Because television was new in 1949, which was way before I was born, he. They started using him. They had, like, sports and they had obviously, tv and. But they also had that because he was going between radio and television. Radio and television. My godfather was the president of. Of Golden West Broadcasters, which owned KMPC and ktla. These are all stations you don't know, but you may know them now, but not then. And he was partners with Gene Autry. So they. They formed all. They. They bought the Los Angeles Angels, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I mean, they actually didn't buy them, they created them. So my father was sent out to scout for voices, and he brought Don Wells from Chicago to be the voice of the Los Angeles Angels, things like that. But he was always going back and forth. And then he started doing film, and then he worked with Jack Webb and became partners with Jack Webb. And then that went on and on and on. So we always had sports, famous sports people and famous actors and just everybody coming in and out of our house all the time. And I grew up in Brentwood, which is a part of the west side of Los Angeles, which is next to Palestine. [00:18:58] Speaker A: A very nice part. A very nice part of Los Angeles, one should point out. [00:19:02] Speaker B: Thank you. [00:19:03] Speaker A: That was. I will point out, that's also OJ's. That was OJ's. [00:19:08] Speaker B: Yes. That's unfortunate. Part of town on the map. But. [00:19:12] Speaker A: But just for balance. That's all I'm saying. Yeah, but he liked it because it was nice. Well, you can't blame him for that. [00:19:20] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Sadly, it marred our reputation, but we. We get over these things in Brentwood. But I grew up with nothing but celebrities around me. [00:19:30] Speaker A: You just grow the hedge a little higher. [00:19:32] Speaker B: Exactly, exactly. So I grew up with children of celebrities. I grew up with going to famous people's homes all the time. And so it was my normal. And a lot of times I was asked this question by what we call a civilian, as you well know, Alan, that's what we call people that aren't in the industry and who don't really understand it, that they were like, well, how did that. I mean, how did that work for you? And I said, well, you know, it was when I got out and started traveling the world and traveling the United States and stuff like that, when I was very young, when I went to Back east to Boston for school and my first year in college and things like that. It's like people would either think I was bragging or they would think I was making it up, or they just. Because as I explained to this guy, we had our own language there. It was my normal. It's all I knew. So it's like telling me that you're from, you know, Boston, Massachusetts. I know nothing about Boston. I don't know anything about your family. I don't know anything about anything. And, and you're telling me this stuff. I'm interested in it. And I thought that my upbringing would be interesting to other people, but I quickly found out that, you know, the curse of, you know, college students is that just like children, they can be very cutting and they can be very, their wit can be very sardonic and. [00:20:59] Speaker A: Where did you go to school in the East? [00:21:01] Speaker B: I went to school at a junior art, a college for art that was a junior college in Boston, literally, in Back Bay, Boston. And I spent a year there, and then I was accepted to California College of the Arts in Berkeley or Oakland, right on the border. And so I went there. [00:21:19] Speaker A: And so you got to come, you got to come home, back to California. [00:21:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:24] Speaker A: And it, when, when I was, when I was in college. It's funny, did you say that, that no one back east was interested in your Californian ness? I, when I, I went to Vassar and my, my first girlfriend was from California, she was from Marin county, and I thought she was exotic simply because her upbringing was so unlike anything that I had experienced on the very much more disciplined East Coast. It wasn't. I, I, I, I cannot. What, what, who, what kind of people went to this goofy arts college that did not recognize a rare bird when they had one in their mist? What the hell is wrong with these people? Anyway, I, I digress. Carry on. [00:22:08] Speaker B: No, thank you. That's very kind. Some did. And those were, those were my people. I mean, I found my tribe at some point, obviously, but it just, you know, when you grow up like I did, we have a language, you know, we have a, we have a way of referencing things. We have a point of reference. I mean, when you grow up in a neighborhood where practically every single one of your neighbors is a movie star or a television star, I mean, I grew up. I mean, I, you know, I'm going to drop names so loudly that you cannot hear a pin drop. I grew up with, like, Cloris Leachman and Judy Garland and Hugh Marlowe. And then we would have the sports people Like Pancho Gonzalez and these famous tennis player. And we would have the most prominent doctors. And just it was all Lloyd Bridges and Jeff and Bo, and it's like, you know, I remember my father. I said to my father one time, I want to. I want to act. I want to. I want to be in acting. And he said, go over to the Bridges house. They encouraged that kind of thing. And I was like, which they do. Which Lloyd always did with his sons. And, you know, and then I had Tim Konsenine, a child actor on child, but, I mean, he was very young on the corner. And then, you know, up the street, Hugh Marlowe's son, Chris Marlowe, who is now the guy who does all the sports for the Denver Nuggets. And before then, he was an Olympian for volleyball and was a hell of a basketball player, too. The guy was. Is still amazing. And when I listened to him speak, when somebody's interviewing him, it's amazing because it just sounds. It's. It just. It's like, we're back. You know, I'm back watching him outside of his house throwing baskets in the. You know, in the basketball hoop. And it's. His father. Hugh Marlow starred in one of my absolute favorite films of all time, the Day the Earth Stood still, the original one from 1953. Correct me if I'm wrong, Alan. [00:24:20] Speaker A: You'Re in the ballpark. [00:24:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:24:24] Speaker A: At least the zip code. [00:24:25] Speaker B: Yeah. And, you know, he played the, you know, horrible boyfriend of Patricia Neal, who, you know, opposite Michael Rennie playing Klaatu and all that. He was like, klatus Diamonds can't be Real. And, you know, because Klaatu came from outer space and was showing, you know, little Billy who played the. The kid from, you know. Oh, God, what was it called? The. The TV show with those. The Bill Mooney, Father Knows Best. Father Knows Best, he played. And anyway, and so the, you know, Hughes character was like, I don't believe anything this guy says. I think this guy's trying to hit on my girlfriend, basically, is what he was saying. And I don't. I'm not comfortable with him being in the house and. Because she ran aborted house. And so it was like, here's the guy that was like in my favorite movie, you know, which I didn't see until, of course, I was old enough. I hadn't even been born yet, but it was like. But, yeah. And so it's like. And then Clarice Leachman, who always had us over all the time, and, you know, was just, you know, she had all these kids, and she loved to feed all of us and everything. And it was. It was just. It's a whole different way of. Of growing up. You walked to everybody's houses. Nobody had any fences, nobody had gates. Nobody had any of that kind of stuff. I mean, it was just. You just had hedges, like you said. You had hedges around your house because that was a good deterrent. You could hear anybody trying to get through them, and they would scratch the hell out of anybody trying to get through them. And so, you know, what did your dad. [00:26:05] Speaker A: What would your dad rather you had done instead of acting? Did he have. [00:26:12] Speaker B: Marry somebody wealthy and not, you know, and go on from there? Because to him, Hollywood. Because he knew Hollywood was poison for a female. That's the way he looked at it. I never told him I wanted to be a movie star. I was a kid when I said it, but I said, you know, I'd like to be like one of those anchor women on tv, like Leslie Stahl. I want to be like that. And funny that now I host my own show and interview people. But, yeah, and he was just. He was absolutely dead set against it. He just didn't want it. He didn't want it for me. And so I just had to go around that and just follow my passion and not, you know, and just do what I did. Which brings us to why I got into soap operas. And that was after traveling in Europe for a long time. [00:27:09] Speaker A: Where did you live in Europe? [00:27:11] Speaker B: I live. London was my base, and I lived in Munich for almost a year. And then I traveled everywhere. I mean, I went all the way from. [00:27:21] Speaker A: Can I ask what. What. What year this is? What year? Years. [00:27:24] Speaker B: This was in the 70s, the mid-70s. I left in 1976, February of 1976. And it was the most amazing experience of my life. And it was a place where I could escape where I had grown up. I could escape and not. I could be anybody that I wanted to be. And nobody had. Nobody knew anything. [00:27:49] Speaker A: You were. You were how old? [00:27:52] Speaker B: I was 23 when I went. Yeah. So I was over it. I was over being, you know, in. Because I went to school at Berkeley and then I went. I ended up graduating at ucla, and I was just. I was just over it. And a friend of mine said, you know, you really need to get out of the country. He said, you need to get out of here, was the first thing he said. And then he said, and I don't mean here, California, in the United States. I mean, out of the United States. You need to Go away and get a taste of what it's like to be in another country and, or other countries and go as long as you, as you can. And so I did. And it was, I mean, I went to Nepal, I went to India, I went all over the place. I spent four years doing that and, you know, ended up, ended up joining up with one of my oldest friends from when I was a little girl. We've known each other since we were 10, and that's Judy Garland's other daughter, Lorna Luft. And so we ended up hanging out together. So you see, it all comes full circle because we know what it's like for, to be, just be our normal. So we could, we became like best friends again. It was tick 2 seconds in London and then she introduced me to all these famous people there and it's like, you know, all of her friends and, you know, and it just, one thing led to another and then when I came back, I was roaring to go. So I went to broadcasting school and in San Francisco and. [00:29:23] Speaker A: But now you had, now you had some, some perspective that you didn't have. [00:29:27] Speaker B: Correct. Previously correct. [00:29:29] Speaker A: And did you appreciate what that perspective gave you? [00:29:35] Speaker B: Yes, yes, because I could. Once again, I had a broader perspective of life and people and I was. [00:29:47] Speaker A: California as a whole. [00:29:49] Speaker B: Yep, exactly, exactly. And being in San Francisco, which was wonderful, it was great going to broadcasting school because I had all the top disc jockeys, because you in those days would turn in your tapes and then they would give you their feedback on another tape and you would, that would, you know, you'd listen to what they had to say. And one of them would phone me on the, called me on the phone and said, I don't know why you're even in this program. This is a three year program and you're graduating in six months. I'm just calling to tell you that we're graduating you now. And I was like, oh, okay, how about graduating me with a job? And so he said, well, everything. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, right. And so I was like, well, growing up with a broadcaster father, I guess that really helped me. So. Yeah. [00:30:42] Speaker A: So, well, well, okay, what. All right. What do you think growing up with a broadcaster father instilled in you on the, on the down low. [00:30:57] Speaker B: How to be able to talk to anybody, how to be able to connect with anybody, which definitely helped when it came to traveling because I'm, I became a chameleon because I could fit in with everybody. I could sit in the dirt and eat Indian food in India and I could sit at you know, Queen Elizabeth's table and know what all the place settings were because. Because I'd grown up with a mother who was in high society, so I learned all that sort of stuff. And I knew which glass went where, which fork and knife and spoons and desserts and all that stuff. And so I was able to mix with everybody. And that is also a. Not a talent. It's just something that when you're mercurial, as I am, it worked. And that's why I was drawn to teaching acting, was because I studied, like I say, by fate or whatever you want to call it. I was in a position taking care of a friend's mother who had cancer in the Midwest. And she was a die hard soap opera fan. And that's when there were 17 soap operas on television. So I watched with her every day from morning. [00:32:23] Speaker A: That was. This was your entree in. Into the, into the world. [00:32:26] Speaker B: I had through. [00:32:27] Speaker A: Through a consumer. [00:32:29] Speaker B: Yes, because we had never had TVs on during the day in our home, ever, Ever. Because my father worked in nighttime, in. In prime time, so, you know, with Jack Webb and all that kind of stuff, because that's what, you know, as we're talking about progressing into the 70s and, and into the 80s. And so I saw this medium that I had never watched before, and I was like, wow, these actors are amazing. You know, I mean, this is a, this, this is, this is acting. And, and this is very dis. Like you said earlier, very disciplined acting. Extremely disciplined. And I, I would turn to her and I would say, you watch this every day? And she'd be like, yeah, every day I'm glued to it. I said, I can see why. So as soon as I left the Midwest and came home to California, I started investing in taking classes. I took commercial acting classes, and then I started taking soap opera classes. And then I start. Then I met somebody who was a star on the Young and the Restless. And he said, you should take this class that my director, the late, now the late Rudy Vejar, who was the. One of the, you know, most popular directors on the Young and the Restless. And he said, you should take a class from him. And so I did. And he brought me behind the. Into the director's booth. So I learned how to do that. And I thought, you know what? I can do this. So I started my own acting school based. And then my friends and my mentor, Lee Bell would supply me with the actual scripts from the show in advance of the show's airing. So my students will not have seen this none of them will have, you know, none of it. So it was perfect. And I was quite successful at it until as our old friend OJ as we mentioned earlier, came along. And then soap operas started to go like that, and now there's only four of them left out of 17. Because who wants to tune into a soap opera when you've got O.J. simpson's trial and you've got him, you know, going down the 405 in his Bronco? You know, everybody was glued to that. Not to soap operas. [00:34:52] Speaker A: Reality. [00:34:53] Speaker B: Well, and cable news and reality tv. [00:34:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:34:57] Speaker B: There'd be no Kardashians if it hadn't been for Robert Kardashian being one of the attorneys for O.J. simpson. There would be no Kardashians. None, zip, zero, nada. So it's just. [00:35:09] Speaker A: Don't tell them to put on the glove. Just delete. Just keep trying to put on the glove. Everything would be different. [00:35:17] Speaker B: Exactly. Or as Keith Morrison would say. Or would it? [00:35:25] Speaker A: Indeed. [00:35:28] Speaker B: So it was all. You know, it's just. So it's been a mission. Gosh. Of different things that I've gone through and. But I'm happy for where I am. I'm happy for all the experiences. They keep growing. I keep meeting more and more people that are, you know, like yourself, that have been in the industry. And, you know, I. I'm fearless when it comes to, you know, approaching people and saying, you want to be on the show, want to be on the show, want to be on the show. You know, life gets in the way. So my show. There aren't a lot of my shows, but the ones that I've done, I've either done alone or I've done with people like yourself and other famous friends of mine and the children of famous people. And I love it. And I have a whole list of more that I need to interview because it's fun. It's fun to talk to them. It's fun to hear their side of things. And just as you're hearing my side of things, because, once again, I come from a very eclectic upbringing and eclectic life because I have dabbled in so many different parts of show business and so many different. I mean, from music. I mean, I have very famous music friends. I've very. You know, I've got. You know, I just. I've had such a. Just eclectic is the only word I can put it. Because I flipped from one to another to the other. I was a professional singer for a while. I mean, it was like I just. I flipped all over the place. So. Which is good because again, being that I'm mercurial, I, you know, I can talk to anybody. I said, a Spanish speaking friend of mine said, we have an expression in Spanish. You could talk to a rock. And I was like, exactly. You know, and I strike up conversations with people and they're. And then they start talking and then I hear about their stories. And it's amazing. It's really amazing. Especially when, you know, I'm a. I'm a third generation Californian and I'm a 13th generation American, if that's what we call them ourselves or whatever. So I come from a long history that has nothing to do with show business, has to do with politics. And so it's very strange. It's. It's just been a very interesting life because I can float in and out of all these different things. I can go on a movie set and I know, I mean, I went on my dad's sets from when I was a kid. I went on my boyfriend's dad's sets since I was a kid. I've been on, you know, the Judy Garland show sets. I've been on, you know, all over the place. So I'm used to it, you know, I know not to step on the cords on the floor that are covered in gaffer tape, you know, and that's like, you know, but it comes down to something as simple. Alan is saying something to somebody like, oh, I need to get some gaffers tape at the, at the Office Depot or whatever. And they're like, what's gaffers tape? We just call it duct tape. And I'm like, I'm sorry. Oops. You know, I guess my upbringing is showing. [00:38:45] Speaker A: Show business has changed. [00:38:47] Speaker B: Yep, yep. And it's gotten. I hate to say this, but I did not, did not surprise me in the least. It's become, and I didn't think this was possible, more cutthroat now than it ever has been. And there are more Nepo babies, which is a term we use for people like myself who grew up in this industry who are working more than other actors are working. And it's not necessarily because they have any more talent, but it's also because, as I am one, we grew up with it, so we're familiar with it and we know how to behave and we know what to do and all that kind of stuff. So it's, it's not something. I don't like it when I hear it used as a derogatory term because we come by it naturally, whether you like it or not. [00:39:40] Speaker A: And you didn't have a choice in the matter. [00:39:42] Speaker B: Exactly. We were born into it. And so you either like us because we're talented or you don't like us because you think we're Nepo babies and we just got it handed to us on a silver platter. Well, how many Fs do I have to give? I don't have any left to give, so I don't care. [00:40:01] Speaker A: You donated them all somewhere? Apparently. [00:40:03] Speaker B: Yeah, along the way. Here you go, here you go, Here you go. So, yeah, so that's. And also because I had a father that was switching around all the time also, you know, he was brought in to be a, you know, a communications consultant for radios, for radio stations forever. He was brought in to be a communications consultant for sports. He was brought, you know, he was just all over the place. So it came naturally to me to do all the, you know, to go into different mediums, if you will. But soap opera, yes, back to that was my primary because I liked the fact that they were a family. I liked the fact that they didn't show up in the mags, you know, and as. Oh, so and so and so and so, you know, they weren't sought after. The paparazzi doesn't take pictures of soap actors because soap actors live a very quiet life. They're too busy. And they also live a 9 to 5 life, which is really nice because you can have a family and a girlfriend and kids and a wife and a husband and a. In a partner and all that kind of stuff. And you're not constantly being mobbed when you go to Mr. Chow's or something, you know, it's like, you know, it's not happening. So that appealed to me a lot too. [00:41:19] Speaker A: There were, there were people in the TV world, in the sitcom world, not writers, but most people, the sitcom world lived a 9 to 5 existence, except writers. Those of us in the filmed. Like Tales from the Crypto. Yeah, no, we. We had a 13 hour schedule. We. That started at 7am on Monday morning. By the time we got to Friday, we were, the crew was. Was going home at 6am on Saturday morning. [00:41:48] Speaker B: I feel that was the beast, but. [00:41:52] Speaker A: That was the beast. [00:41:53] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's the same with soap operas. You know, it's one thing to get up there and act and it's another thing too. All of a sudden you're going home because suburbs are split up where you have a morning crew from 6:30 to 12:30 and then you have your afternoon cast that comes in from 12:30 to 5:30 or however long. I mean, I'm not saying they all end at 5:30 in the afternoon. A lot of them. If you've got, especially if you have like a ballroom scene or a wedding or something like that, those can go into the. Well into the evening hours because there's so many of you that have to be shot. But for the most part we knew, or they knew that we could all leave. But you guys, that's when your work started. The editing booth, getting the sound and getting the music in, getting the, all the, all of that stuff. So you guys were sometimes there until forever, you know, that mess, you know what I speak. [00:42:51] Speaker A: But that's where, that's where the magic happens in, in the, in in the cutting room. Less so for soap operas. Because that had to be because of the, of the factory. The real. It really had to be pooped out. Exactly. As a. Pretty close as it was going to go on the air. [00:43:08] Speaker B: Exactly, exactly. [00:43:09] Speaker A: Simply just. But, but the. [00:43:11] Speaker B: Well, you had to get it into the fan that night though. [00:43:13] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:43:14] Speaker B: You didn't have any time. [00:43:16] Speaker A: But the efficiency of it is absolutely commendable. It's. [00:43:22] Speaker B: Yes. [00:43:22] Speaker A: You know. [00:43:23] Speaker B: Yeah. And back in the day they used to be able to use real top 40 hits and be able to integrate them. Now it's too expensive. But back in the day, how many. [00:43:36] Speaker A: Pages a day of dialogue? [00:43:39] Speaker B: Seventy. [00:43:41] Speaker A: Zero pages a day. [00:43:43] Speaker B: Yes, yes. [00:43:44] Speaker A: When, when Gil and I first started doing Tales from the Crypt, before we got hired, Gil had a meeting with Joel Silver. And Joel was trying to impress upon Gil how challenging this was going to be, not realizing that Gil having been in tv, we, we did a show called Freddy's Nightmares, I remember. And we would shoot 10, 12, 15 pages a day, which was heavy, heavy for, for TV show. But Joel brings Gil into this conversation and wants to impress upon him that we're doing a feature, feature size thing inside a TV size box. And he said, and you know, but the workload is going to be killer. You're probably going to have to do five pages a day. And Gil said, and what do we do after lunch? So, yeah, so 70 pages a day. Yeah, you, you go home at the end of the day, you have some family life, but you got homework. [00:44:50] Speaker B: Yes, you do. [00:44:51] Speaker A: You got, you got lines to learn. [00:44:53] Speaker B: Yes you do. But when you love what you do. [00:44:57] Speaker A: It'S a steady gig. It's a steady acting gig. [00:45:00] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. [00:45:02] Speaker A: And that's how many of those are. [00:45:04] Speaker B: Exactly, exactly. People would give their, you know, and I remember when it would all go around and around, about, about, oh, you're just a soap actor. And it's like, really? And if you're like, yeah, I'm a movie star. Really? Okay, well, we'll see how long. You're a movie star. We'll see how long I'm a. So bad. [00:45:24] Speaker A: Have you seen my house? [00:45:26] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:45:27] Speaker A: Paid off. You dumb. [00:45:31] Speaker B: Exactly. It's like my dad said when I first got into it. Well, when I was well into it. And he said to me, the difference between TV money and soap opera money is the fact that the Bells, William and, well, Bill Bell and his wife Lee Bell have three houses in Malibu and four houses in Beverly Hills. That's the difference. And every one of those houses is a multimillion dollar house. That's the difference. You're lucky in TV if you get one house like that, much less seven. That's the difference between daytime and prime time because daytime pays for primetime because of all the commercials during the daytime. So you're, you've got a half hour show that shoots maybe for 20 minutes. So you have to be edited down to 20 minutes because you have to have 10 minutes worth of commercials. And it's the same with an hour long show. The Bold and Beautiful is the only half hour show on television, but it's also seen in 120 countries around the world. So it is the most popular soap opera ever in the history of soap operas globally. So. And the Young and the Restless is number one in the United States, although it does show in other countries as well. Nothing like the Bold and the Beautiful. And so that was very appealing to me. And the fact that people could, could go to work, come home, you're not working every day. You have weeks at a time that you have off. You have maybe you're working maybe three days a week and you've got four off. You're working maybe two days a week and you got five off. So that's what I mean by having a life. And you rarely travel ever. Yeah, you don't have to go anywhere. So it provides a stable environment for your children and a stable life for you. And once again, you don't have the paparazzi, you know, chasing you all the time. So there was. And you don't want that. I mean, you don't, you know, that's why you have a public. They have their own. They're the closest thing I have always said. And I wrote a book, you can see behind me right there, Soap opera acting. The ins and outs of daytime drama with. By me, Bonnie forward and then forward by Lee Phillip Bell. And so you can have. You have a situation where you. As I write about in my. In my book, and I don't really mention names, but I tell lots of stories in there and about, you know, people will say things like, well, he's a rich soap opera actor, you know. Well, yeah, yeah. Not as much as you make per movie, but have you been working for 40 years straight? [00:48:31] Speaker A: Yes. And that's the difference. He may not. He may not make that particular paycheck, but he's been making a steady one forever. [00:48:39] Speaker B: Exactly, exactly. [00:48:41] Speaker A: You. You should see the size of his retirement. [00:48:44] Speaker B: Exactly, Exactly. Exactly. Put all your kids exactly. Yep, Exactly. Exactly. If you're lucky enough now, if you're not and they kill you off, then I hope you saved your dough, because you're gonna be in big trouble if you spend it all. [00:49:07] Speaker A: What are the. You said there were four still in existence. Four soaps? Yeah. [00:49:11] Speaker B: The Young and the Restless, the Bold and the Beautiful, General Hospital in Days of Our Lives. So there's one per. There's two on CBS, Young and the Restless, symbol and beautiful one on NBC, Days of Our Lives. And then General Hospital has ABC, like I said, down from 17. Yeah. Because of O.J. [00:49:30] Speaker A: What kind of future do those four have? [00:49:33] Speaker B: Oh, they're all solid. I mean, they're not going anywhere. Not going anywhere. People love them. You know, people love, love, love, love, love. But, you know, it's also interesting. There was. There was an director who came on from England, and he was used to Coronation street and English soap operas like that. And the CBS soap operas aren't like that. So it's very, very different. And it was difficult for actors to work underneath him because he had such a different way of directing them. So there's that. [00:50:15] Speaker A: What was that difference? [00:50:17] Speaker B: Well, Coronation street and the other, you know, Emmerdale and the other different British soap operas, a lot of them are shot outside. And as you know, all soap operas are shot inside in America. So whether it be All My Children, as the World Turns One Life to Live, all those different soap operas that went by the by, everything was shot on soundstages. So it's very difficult to sort of translate from directing only things that were shot inside of pubs and in public places and things like that to having a very minimal amount of people in a soap opera. It's hard to explain because, you know, unless you've been on a soap opera set that you know, the talent that you have behind you and stuff like that is really about four feet behind you. You know, it looks like they're miles away, but they're not. And you don't have people walking out onto the street and talking to actors, walking up and down a regular street. That just doesn't happen. Well, very rarely, let's just put it that way. So there's that and so you have things. But then again you go on a. You know, and the other thing was that you go on a movie set or a TV set and your soap opera training is such a fantastic way to make that leap into something because you are so used to memorizing stuff that it's very easy for you. You don't need all those takes and all the diva things. And, you know, we didn't jump over that car. Right. We need to do that again and stuff like that. You don't need all of that, you know, because you know your lines. And knowing your lines is the most important thing, as you well know. Because when an actor knows their lines, it's easier for you to edit. [00:52:01] Speaker A: Yes, that. And don't bump into the furniture. [00:52:05] Speaker B: Yes, exactly. And in so far. But don't turn your back to the camera as number one. [00:52:11] Speaker A: So. So there is still, you know, there's. This is still a skill set worth cultivating how to be a soap opera performer. [00:52:22] Speaker B: Absolutely, absolutely. Because the most. And I've actually was asked this by. It's in my book. I do tell that story, but I don't name names. But a very esteemed soap opera actor who did a lot of television before he became a soap opera actor, and he's one of the, you know, older soap opera actors now, having been on the show for over 40 years. And I was on set and I said, he said, oh, so what do you do? Because he was sitting, waiting for him, waiting to be. I mean, he was on set, but he was waiting to be called. And. And I said, well, I'm a soap opera acting coach. And he said, well, what's the difference? And I said, well, there's a huge difference. You guys take much longer beats, you talk much slower, you talk, you know, you're, you're. The intensity of cameras are like right on your face, you know, they're the. I mean, just that. I mean, you've got to be bulletproof. Makeup, everything has to be perfect. And he was like, oh, that's rubbish. There's no difference. There's no difference at all, you know, And I went back and I called my, My dear friend who was one of his co stars, that I said, this is what he said. My actor friend said, that's because he's the king of slow. Watch anything else he's ever done. He's this same every character. He just is so slow. And I was just cracked up. And I said, well, you have a point there. And he goes, so of course he doesn't see a difference. We do, because we've done episodic television and we know the difference. But, yeah, so, you know, people get comfortable in doing their. Their roles and as they. Well, well, they should do. But I don't find a lot. I mean, I find them to be terrifically different from their characters. And like I said, the wonderful thing about it is that you get to have a life. And your soap opera life can be just as charming and intriguing and fun and all that kind of stuff. You don't have all gossip, all crap behind you all the time. Although you do get recognized on the street and people do feel like they know you because you're in their homes five days a week. Week. So I was walking in New York with my actor friend, and a guy was offloading some moving van, and he was carrying stuff in. He was part of the moving van people. And he looked at my friend and did another double take and did another double take. And he said, I know you from somewhere. And my friend decided to have fun. You know, this is New York City. So he decided to have fun. He goes, I don't know. Where do you know me from? And he said, I don't know, but it'll come. I know it's going in his movie furniture. And he goes, I know it's going to come to me like that. My friend decided to sort of stand there for a minute, let him try, figure it out, and. And then finally he said, well, do you know who I am yet? Or who you think I am? And he goes, I don't know, but, oh, my wife watches you on tv. I know you are. You are. And then he says the character's name, which everybody does, which is always funny. And then he said, you got it. You got it, my brother. You got it. [00:55:44] Speaker A: Bonnie, please say the name of your book one more time. [00:55:47] Speaker B: It's called Soap Opera Acting. There you go. Soap Opera Acting. The ins and outs of daytime drama. And at the bottom, you've got Bonnie Philippell. [00:56:06] Speaker A: We've seen it all. [00:56:07] Speaker B: Yeah, we've seen it all. [00:56:09] Speaker A: Bonnie, I cannot thank you enough for sitting in today and, hey, let's continue the conversation. [00:56:17] Speaker B: Yeah, I bought that. Thank you, Alan. Thank you for having me. [00:56:21] Speaker A: The pleasure was all mine. And thank you everyone, as always for tuning in. We'll see you next time. The how not to Make a Movie podcast is executive produced by me, Alan Katz, by Gil Adler, and by Jason Stein. Our artwork was done by the amazing Jody Webster and Jason. Jody, along with Mando, are all the hosts of the fun and informative Dads from the Crypt podcast. Follow them for what my old pal the Crypt Keeper would have called terrorific Crip content.