S3E47: Why REAL Movie Critics Matter

[00:00:00] Speaker A: This podcast is a collaboration between Costard and Touchstone Productions and the Dads from the Crypt podcast. See, but you, you held the spotlight. It's those of us in the dark, the ones who just watch, who survive. Hello, and welcome to another episode of how not to Make a Movie podcast. I'm Alan Katz. Today, we're talking about criticism. Now, here's the thing about criticism. If you can't take it, you have no business being in show business. Because show business is all about getting and taking criticism. From the moment you put any sort of creative idea on the table, whether in the form of a pitch or a script or a concept package, whether it's the people you're working with or the people you're trying to sell it to, there will be criticism. First thing, you cannot take any of it personally. That will open a door to sheer misery. Now, it doesn't matter that I just told you, don't take it personally, because you will. We all do. It's just how it is. But you have to do everything you can to not take it personally. Criticism is a fact of life. The question you need to put front and center is, is the criticism valid? And it very well may be, but it depends. Does the critic have the least idea what the fuck they're talking about? Because if they don't, then why on earth would you listen to them? By the same token, if the critic does have a valid point, especially if they've articulated it, which is not an easy thing to do. In that case, you better put your adult clothes on and listen. Take that criticism. Take it in and learn from it. Become a better creator. As a result, we all use criticism every day in the form of product reviews. How else to help us choose between the shitload of choices in front of us? Which products or services are worth our time and our hard earned money? Before we even get there, we need to know, whose opinions should we trust? There are our friends. We know their tastes, and hopefully we have fairly mutual tastes. So when a friend says, watch this show or listen to this podcast, you'll give it very serious consideration. You trust the reviewer and their integrity. Maybe you subscribe to a newspaper or some other publications that review movies and podcasts and TV shows. Perhaps you look to their reviews to help in that choosing process. In essence, those reviews are entirely neutral walking in the door. Their only allegiance is to their own critical tastes, those critics and their readers, followers and fans. Their only real allegiance is to you. And then there are influencer reviews. Now they can be entirely valid, too. No argument. But there can be a problem with their reviews, too. With more than a few of them, one way or another, they're on the payroll of the companies whose products they're reviewing. Well, that ain't kosher. And it doesn't smell too good either. That's really more an informed opinion than it is a serious review. Hey, look, maybe that's all you want, but it's your time and your money. If I could have my way, every review of everything I do or did would glow like the sun. But that wouldn't be right. And it wouldn't be honest either, I'm quite sure. Hey, I made bordello of blood, didn't I? All right, preamble over. Our guest today is our old friend, entertainment journalist and movie critic Kristen Lopez. Kristen has written and worked for the Rap, Variety and IndieWire. Currently, she's over scheduled working on two books. One, a history of how Hollywood has depicted characters with disabilities. And the other is an oral history of tales from the Crypto. Kristen is a huge fan of Crypt, so obviously I completely trust her critical viewpoint, even when it's actually critical, because I trust her. Hey, here's Kristen. We're here today to talk about what the hell is happening to film criticism. But before we dive into that, I want to get a sense of you as a criticism. And I think the best way to get a sense of you as a critic, Kristen, is to read what you've, what you've written. Recently you wrote a terrific piece on Substack titled it and the horrors of Childhood or why I identify with Eddie Kasbrak so much. And in that terrific piece you wrote, and I highly, absolutely recommend, I highly recommend that you subscribe to Kristen on Substack. If you look at it as chuckles per dollar spent, it's an incredible bargain. In this piece Kristen wrote, the films that have stuck with me the deepest are small town stories with characters that feel like they own a little sliver of who I am. [00:05:37] Speaker B: Sometimes I can write a good line. It takes a lot of, takes a lot of work in toiling, but, oh, sometimes I have the ability. [00:05:46] Speaker A: But that's not just a line you wrote, that's a line you felt. [00:05:53] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, you know, I think it's why we love movies, right? Is the. It's why we build our personality around movies. It's why we learn things from movies because we feel, you know, movies are the first influencers, I think, you know, or pop culture is really the first influencer, you know, in the sense that like, you feel like you know, something, you know, a filmmaker from the films they make, you know, you know, a celebrity from the Persona that they create. So, you know, it's, it's something that unfortunately can, can be abused, you know, and I'm writing, I'm writing a whole book right now about what disability looks like in film and how that taught me to see myself. But yeah, I think that for me as a critic, what I come to, and there's discourse back and forth about how your own personal views and your personal experience shouldn't inform your criticism. But it's impossible. I think it's impossible because films create us, you know, and who we are, and we determine so much based on what we like and don't like in the film space. [00:07:08] Speaker A: You said that you adore. Well, Eddie is the main reason you adore it. He reminds you so much of yourself less as a child and more as you currently are. [00:07:20] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, you know, Eddie, and it is a hypochondriac. And I'm very much a hypochondriac. Like WebMD is my friend. Every mole could be cancer. I'm not really, you know, sure about that. Like, every, every single thing. [00:07:36] Speaker A: To be fair, life has been less than fair to you in terms of what it has heaped upon you. [00:07:44] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, as a, as a disabled person, you know, I definitely came with more challenges. My mom will tell you I keep a list of all of the things that I was not allowed to do as a child that I probably would not. You know, my mom is joke like, well, you can do them now. Like if you wanted to. You really could. I'm like, no, the time is done. You know, my dreams of being a world class ribbon dancer are over. You know, my wrists aren't as pliant as they used to be. So it's, you know, it's definitely one of those things where, you know, to, to watch Eddie and it, I'm like, okay, so that's what, you know, I, I often joke that I think I was more fearless as a kid than I was as an adult, you know, but at the same time, when, when things went wrong for me as a kid, they went really wrong, you know, so it was, it was less, you know, when people joke about, like childish consequences, mine often were way worse than the usual. [00:08:49] Speaker A: You close by saying that for all his rationalizing, he's never a coward. [00:08:57] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that. And that's, I think what makes it such a fun, timeless kind of horror film is the fact that it showcases, I think, what I always notice about it is that unlike 80s movies, and, you know, Alan, you probably. You have more experience about the 80s than I do. I experienced the 80s through film. But the 80s are often presented as this real, like, hedonistic time, especially for, you know, young people. You know, you have a whole genre of 80s Movies that are about, you know, driving around in sex and, you know, all these. All these things. But it is one of the few movies that I think I appreciate it, appreciate more now as a millennial living in 2024, because it often says, like, was it this time of hedonism? Or is it this time when we actually should have been more concerned about what children were doing? And it's a time of being of the unknown and, you know, being more circumspect about things. And I think that's what I appreciate, you know, and about film in general. Film often makes you feel like you're less crazy. It gives you this nice, warm little home that you can, you know. And ironically, I've been re. I was been rewatching Mike Flanigan's haunting of Hill House this week, too, which is another, like, small town, confined to one location type of story. And I think what it does so well is, yeah, showcases that, you know, you can be a hypochondriac, you can be, you know, an anxious person, but when, you know, the chips are down, like, you learn how to be, how to find a form of strength. You know, it might not be one where you're, like, leading the fray, but you find your inner gumption and you're to. To succeed. [00:10:48] Speaker A: So movies were always a thing? [00:10:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:10:52] Speaker A: Were there particular critics as you began to formulate your. Your own film taste? And as I know, I began to read film critics to get a sense of, well, is my opinion good or bad? You know, at first you want some affirmation that your taste is, you know, you're not, you know, taste up your ass, you know, and when you suddenly find that a. A professional critic who. Who's writing you like, either agrees with you or. Or you can challenge your thinking about a movie, you suddenly begin to. Those critics become an important part of your film experience, too. Were there any film critics that helped formulate your sense, your idea of movies, but also your idea of film criticism? [00:11:47] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I was a nerd, as you know, growing up. I read a lot of film books and I read, you know, Roger Ebert's Great Movies series and, you know, I read Pauline Kale and I read A.O. scott and Kenneth Turan and You know, I appreciated them more as film history books in the sense of, like, these are the movies you should watch, that if you want an example of great filmmaking, you should watch this. So I. It took me a minute to realize that they were actually compendiums, and especially Roger Ebert stuff that were compendiums of reviews he'd actually written at the time. And I realized that I kind of might be at odds with certain critics. When I read Roger Ebert's book, I forget the exact title, but it was about movies he hated, and it was reviews of all these movies that he had hated. And he talks about how much he hates the film north with Elijah wood from the 90s. And it's become this big thing that this is like, yeah, that this is which. [00:12:51] Speaker A: What's the name of the film? [00:12:52] Speaker B: North. So, yeah, it's. If you haven't seen it in a minute and most people have it, it's about Elijah Wood as a little boy who essentially wants to divorce his parents. And so he sues them and goes on this journey and meets a bunch of different people who might want to be his parents, ultimately realizing that his parents might, you know, who were Jason Alexander and Julia Louis Dreyfus might not have been so bad after all. And as somebody that was a kid in the 90s and that watched that movie and found that movie very fun and silly, I was a bit at odds. I was like, well, it's not the worst thing ever. I don't really know why you're crafting a whole thing around, you know, this one movie, you know, that ended up undoing a lot of people's careers because of the reviews it got. And I realized at that point that, you know, a lot of the critics that I liked were fantastic writers and they were fantastic critics, but they weren't really me. You know, the majority of critics were white men who were older. You know, Pauline Kale was kind of the de facto woman, but she had stopped writing for a significant amount of time, you know, and I think she had passed, you know, when I started to really get into, you know, film. So there weren't really a lot of women for me to look at, you know, in terms of criticism. Certainly not disabled women critics. You know. So I realized at a certain point, you know, I started when I realized I was going to get, you know, have to graduate high school and get a job. And I was like, well, you know, criticism. Like, I have to like, what do you need for that? And I Googled what Roger Ebert's qualifications were and he has an English degree. Like, he didn't, he doesn't have a degree in criticism. Like, no one gave him. You know, he didn't have a film background. And I realized that a lot of critics actually didn't often have, you know, high falutin degrees. [00:14:53] Speaker A: I don't even know what was Pauline. [00:14:55] Speaker B: Kale's background that, that I don't have offhand. Let me see if I can find it, because, yeah, it was. I definitely realized, like, okay, well, you know, these, these are incredibly smart people. Yes, they're fantastic writers, but they don't. I, I realized that there wasn't really any type of special, you know, credential. It's not like being a doctor. You know, like, you don't, you don't necessarily need to have a card that says, you know, critic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:15:27] Speaker A: To, to, to judge by a lot of Pauline Kell's work. And I, I, she was really the first person. Person, the first critic that I, I suddenly realized film criticism actually is a kind of art all by itself. But she, in a movie review, she would mention 20 other movies. [00:15:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:15:49] Speaker A: And she would reference all these other movies. And there was a point at first I thought, God, it's like she arrives at the movie theater with all her baggage and she gets out, she goes into the movie. But as I've gone through, as I've gone through my life and, and watch more and more movies, I really understand that that is. Yeah. How can you not watch a movie and feel all the other movies that influenced it? Because movies are that influential. [00:16:18] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, Pauline Kale, to answer your question, you know, she, she studied at UC Berkeley, and she studied philosophy and literature and art. But she eventually dropped out and she got her first review by being overheard at a coffee shop by a magazine editor, and he just gave her an assignment. That's how she did it. [00:16:36] Speaker A: Right, right. She had, she had a good opinion. Well crafted. [00:16:42] Speaker B: Yeah. And I've gotten, you know, a lot. A couple years ago, I tweeted, of course, about how I really missed people having some sort of cursory film background or film knowledge in order to write. I don't. And I mean, I took a lot of film classes in college, but I'm not a film major, but I understand composition, cinematography, production design, and how that enhances or detracts from a film or, you know, I have the foundations of film knowledge, you know, and it helps that. Yes, I have a lot of film history, but it became a really controversial topic on social media that I was telling people well, if you don't have the film background, you can't write criticism. And that's not at all what I was saying. It was more like, I want people to know, you know, the foundations. I mean, film criticism requires two things, which is the ability to write and the ability to deconstruct film. And if you don't have background knowledge in either of those things, you're just writing a Yelp review. [00:17:48] Speaker A: Well, you, you need to be informed about the thing that you're reviewing. And, and really. And even there are degrees of being informed. You can, in reviewing a cake, you can review the icing, the sprinkles on top of the icing, or you can review the cake. And then the awful lot of reviewing, really, they're talking about the icing and the sprinkles. And really, they, they might touch upon the cake, but they don't understand how the cake was made or why the cake is no good. [00:18:19] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, to continue with. [00:18:21] Speaker A: Or why it's great. I'm sorry. Or why it's also good. Also be a good cake. [00:18:24] Speaker B: Yeah. And to continue with that. I mean, that's not to say that you don't need to appreciate, you know, the frippery, you know, the, the sprinkles and the frosting and, and understand why those things add or detract from the overall experience. It's the fact, though, that, you know, if you are saying something is bad, you should be able to explain to me why it's bad, you know, and understand why the film, using all of the things, the techniques it employs, ultimately is giving you something great or terrible. And I'm one of those, you know, I say it a lot. Movies reviews that I have to write about, movies that I love are the hardest for me to write because it's often hard for me to just explain why I love something. You know, I, I joke that I just want to put in all caps, like, just go see it. Don't take my word. Just go see it and then tell me how awesome it is. And that's. I'm. But. But that challenges me as a writer, you know, to be like, well, you have to explain why it's good. You know, and that is really, really hard. Movies that are terrible, it's easy for me at least to say why they're bad. You know, I can write a 1600 word review that's just all about why something's terrible. [00:19:40] Speaker A: You've put it on the table. Kristen, what was the hardest good review you ever had to write? [00:19:45] Speaker B: I Mean, I just wrote it today. It's gonna. My most recent, at least that is coming out tomorrow, is I. I saw Conclave, the Edward Berger Pope movie. And, you know, I'm a lapsed Catholic. I know I don't think I had on my bingo card that I would love a movie about the papacy, you know, and find it to be just this really taut, like, 1970s esque political thriller. Like, it feels like you're watching, you know, Three Days of the Condor if you're watch. Watching this movie about a bunch of cardinals, like, standing in dark rooms smoking cigarettes, talking about, like, the church's future. It's so good, though. It's so good. It's so brisk and it's so juicy, you know, it's very much like I keep saying, if this movie had been made in 94, it would have worked just as fantastically then as it did now. And you probably could have cast the same people and it would have still worked. It's so good. But it took. It was like pulling blood from a stone just to be like, okay, but why is Stanley Tucci really good? You know, like, why. Why do I love that? It's, you know, got all this. This, you know, ceremony to it. Why do I love that it's as unsubtle as a brick to the face? [00:21:05] Speaker A: Okay. By contrast, what was the. All right, A movie that. Just a horrible movie. Movie. It deserved. Deserved every horrible word you said about it, and it was a delight to write, is that they snap to mind that you. [00:21:22] Speaker B: I mean, you know, I've written so many. I've written my fair share of bad reviews. You know, I reviewed again, just something off the top of my head that was fairly recent. You know, I reviewed the Amy Winehouse movie that came out a couple months ago, and that was. Biopics are always a problem, you know, but this one was just like, what if Amy Winehouse's issues were all boiled down to the fact that she couldn't have kids? You know, and that as a. As a, you know, single woman that doesn't have children, I was like, oh, we're going back to that story again. Cool. Thank you for reminding us that we are. [00:22:00] Speaker A: That was her. That was her demon. [00:22:02] Speaker B: Pretty much. Yeah. Yeah, pretty. And it pretty much just said, like, she, sorry to spoil this horrible movie for everybody, but it pretty much ends with her going upstairs and playing for death, almost like a suicide, because she lost the love of her life and he went and had children with someone else. And you're just like, that's Actually historically inaccurate, for starters. And also, like, really, really not the best, you know, but then this is also a movie that, like, rolls its eyes at feminism. Like, it's the ultimate F word. So. And it's, you know, directed by a woman, of all things, so, you know, it's. It's nice. It's a nice cruel irony. But that one, I knew I was gonna not like it, and I had to preface, like, I knew this was not going to be good, but here's also why it's awful. [00:22:51] Speaker A: So in anything quotable that, that, that you wrote, you. You thought, oh, that was a good one. Kristen. [00:22:58] Speaker B: Oh, I. Nothing that comes off the top of my head. I mean, if we're talking about lines that, you know, I have to, like smile. That I came up with. You know, I wrote a review a long time ago on my classic film blog for the Robert Redford movie Brubaker, of all things. And I, I watched it, and if you've seen. It's been a long time since I've seen Brubaker. So I, you know, don't know the plot inside and out, but he's supposed to be, like, amongst all of these, like, hardened criminals and whatnot. He looks like Robert Redford. And I remember writing the line that says he stands out in the crowd like a Christmas package at the city dump. And I, I still. I still am just like, yeah, yeah, that. That's pretty. [00:23:45] Speaker A: Bravo. Bravo. That's a lot. That's a good 1. About Smile 2. You. The headline, bigger, bolder, and insufferably boring. [00:23:56] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I'm terrible at headlines just in general. So that was a good one. [00:24:03] Speaker A: I thought that was a good one about Joker. Folia Deux, you wrote, let's see, one sour note after another, a dark look into the psyche of those who glorify and celebrate mass murderers or anyone causing chaos under the name of freedom. Well put together. And you said it's an ugly look at fanservice obsession and toxicity. If Phillips is done with these movies, it couldn't come soon enough. [00:24:31] Speaker B: I stick by that. If anything, what I'm appreciating now, I was definitely afraid to review Joker, too, because I remember when the first Joker came out and I wrote about it from a disability perspective, and I got several, you know, death threats on social media. You know, I know other women that wrote about it that got, you know, sexual harassment and just really violent comments. And now what's funny is how many people read the review for the sequel and they were like, oh, well, we all Knew, you know, why did you expect it to be any good? We all knew the first movie was trash. And I was like, wait a minute, were you the same people that were threatening to kill me online because I didn't love the first one. You don't all get to go back and collectively say the first movie was bad. You know, you were there, own it. [00:25:24] Speaker A: Well, you know, it's funny because you say that about Smile too. And at the end of the review, you write everything you like about the first Smile isn't here. And if anything, its sequel might just make you question whether the original was any good at all. [00:25:36] Speaker B: You know, and I say that as somebody that liked the first one. I only saw the first one about a month or two ago for the first time and I enjoyed it. But, ooh, seeing the sequel the other night, which I've been told by other people, I am incredibly wrong on my thoughts on Smile too. But I. Nope, I still don't. I don't want to see it again to prove whether it's. It's time has changed. I will not be re watching. [00:26:03] Speaker A: Is it, Is it essential to have a background in movie? Not, I don't mean in making movies, but in a knowledge of movies, of watching movies, to really, to write about movies? [00:26:16] Speaker B: It does, you know, if you don't know what cinematography is and you don't know why the camera being, you know, in focus is important, then you're. You're coming at it at a severe disadvantage. If you don't know what makes a good acting performance versus, you know, a bad one, you're. You're always going to come up two or three, you know, things short. And I think what we're seeing now with film criticism under the influencer age is that people are so focused on, you know, not even necessarily witty turns of phrase or good writing. It's just being first, you know, so the reviews are just very. Are stating the obvious. You know, the performances are good because the performances are the easiest thing to judge. It looks pretty, you know, so you don't have to go into cinematography or production design. You know, it's. It's just the very bare bones, obvious elements of what makes a movie. So you do need a bit of a background, you know, not just in film, film technique, but also. Right. Storytelling. [00:27:30] Speaker A: You know, I would, I was thinking really more along the lines of the history itself, like, all right, do you need to know who James Whale was? [00:27:40] Speaker B: I definitely, I think it helped. You know, there are some there, There are people that come to me and they're like, I don't see nearly as many movies as you. And, you know, I think what's funny now is that we joke a lot. You know, I was at my previous employer. You know, we joked about the fact that most of the people that were watching content or writing about it are under 30. So anything before the 1980s, they don't really know, you know, or they're discovering late in life. And so I do think, you know, a. I come at things with. With film history, if only because I want to keep reiterating to people that you should be seeking out things that are, you know, early, but also because most filmmakers crib from the best. You know, I've talked to my fair share of filmmakers, and they've all talked about, you know, other filmmakers, other films that they've homaged, slash, stolen content from, you know, and if you don't know that something is a direct homage to Citizen Kane, you know, then you're gonna miss part of this, you know, what makes the story interesting. You know, I think for me, it's always a good or. It can be a good or a bad thing to discover. You know, a conclave to go back to my. My Lord and Savior conclave. You know, the fact that it does borrow from the themes and the tone of something like Three Days of the Condor, the Parallax view that for people reading my stuff, they're going to be like, I love that movie. You know, I want to go see this. Or on the other side. I've never seen those movies, and if I like this, then I should go watch those, you know, so it's about keeping the continuum flowing. [00:29:27] Speaker A: All right, let's play a little thought experiment. If you had to recommend three movies to a young person with really who movies Before Night at 2000 don't exist, but three pre 2000 movies. Here's what you need to know about movies. What three would you suggest? [00:29:49] Speaker B: Oh, gosh, that's so tough. And somebody's going to yell at me that I didn't include. [00:29:52] Speaker A: Of course they. [00:29:55] Speaker B: I mean, Casablanca is the big one. I don't even particularly love Casablanca, but if you're looking for great examples of the studio system that kept film going from the 1910s to the 1960s, it's got a great example of big stars, thoughtful production design, black and white cinematography. It's a really great beginner film. You know, for people that are into old Hollywood, you know, I think it's. It's essential. I mean, you know, I always. Titanic is another big one again, if we're talking about coming at needing a bit of film history, you don't understand why Titanic works as well as it does. If you haven't seen some of those big sweeping romances, your Dr. Zhivagos and your Romeo and Juliet's, you know, you need. And it's a great example of modern filmmaking taking 19, you know, studio era beats and contemporizing them at the time for. For 97. And then the third. Ooh, geez, I'm trying to think of something there like in the 1970s, 1980s, that would be. That would be worth it. Gosh, why am I not. Not realizing what movies are at this point? And I've been. Been writing. [00:31:26] Speaker A: I'll throw out a couple. [00:31:28] Speaker B: Go for it. [00:31:29] Speaker A: Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. [00:31:31] Speaker B: You know, that was a movie that I just watched for the first time, I think about a year or two ago. Yeah, I never. [00:31:38] Speaker A: You never saw Butch Cassidy before. [00:31:40] Speaker B: I knew the ending. I knew the ending. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I knew that. You know, which is funny because if, if anybody reads my review, George Clooney, Brad Pitt movie, Wolf's. The ending is the ending of Butch Cassidy, only it's not good. But again, that's such a great example of 19. I mean, the 1970s, you know, fast and dirty, you know, dark storytelling, no happy ending. And I mean, you have the old guard of filmmaking, Paul Newman, you have the newer guard with. With Robert Redford. It's just star power. [00:32:20] Speaker A: Star power. Just two guys who are on screen really, most of the movie. And really, it's not about much. It's really. Who are those guys? [00:32:30] Speaker B: It's really. [00:32:31] Speaker A: It's a tasting for most of them. [00:32:32] Speaker B: The Sting is another good example of that too. I mean, you know, the Sting is a movie. I defy anybody to tell me the plot of the Sting in a sentence or two. You really can't. [00:32:42] Speaker A: It's convoluted by design, but it all works. Look, the whole point is you get to the end of the movie, there. There's some great little plot twists toward the end so that even the audience goes, wait, he was that? And what? Oh, my God, you're kidding. Yeah, yeah, because the audience also too. The. The audience also gets taken in by the con. [00:33:01] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I mean, another. You know, and I, I think I. I tend to find connections. You know, if we're talking about classic, you know, classic era films that people. People need to see that I think would be interesting, you know, gateway films for, for younger viewers, I also throw out. I mean, I'm a big camera crew fan. Fast Times of Ridgemont High is. Is a. Is a classic. And it's. It's on the cusp of 1970s kind of authentic cinema, the kind of hedonism of the 1980s. It's. Mark. It's. It's made for teens, pretty much by teens, because Cameron Crowe was so young at the time. And it's. It's got such a great entry into the 80s. And aside from the fact that, you know, the actors now are older, it's pretty timeless. Aside from the fact that there's, like, no cell phones and maybe some bad hair, you know, but the themes are still very revolutionary in the sense of, like, teenage becoming and female sexuality. And, you know, it was presented as very bleak, you know, for the 80s. Of course, things only got bleaker in certain teen movies after that, but it's. It's, again, a good gateway film. [00:34:19] Speaker A: I think you answered that question among your recent reviews. There's one that, that I. For a Nora. Sean Baker's new movie anor Now, I. I don't know that I've seen a Sean Baker movie. [00:34:35] Speaker B: I have seen Tangerine. I recommend Tangerine's a great Christmas movie. If you're looking for just a loud, brash Christmas movie. It's set during Christmas in la. It's. It's really, really good. I've had a couple people tell me I should watch the Florida Project. I will get to it, I promise. But other than that, yeah, it's. Anora is such a. If you're looking for, again, kind of blending of genres. It is a 1940s screwball comedy with a sex worker twist. [00:35:03] Speaker A: You call it a screwball comedy of errors. [00:35:06] Speaker B: Yeah, it really is. You know, it's. And it blends, you know, a Barbara Stanwyck 40s movie with Oscar Wilde and, you know, just adds a heavy dose of stripperness to it. It's fantastic. It's so well conceived as. [00:35:22] Speaker A: As a, you know, I. I'm old. I'm 65. But so, you know, the movies that. That my classics like Preston Sturges. So when you reference Preston Sturges, I think, well, that sounds awesome. Really. Preston Sturgis operating now. I'm. I would that for me, as somebody reading film criticism, to me, that, that suggests that you know what you're talking about. And the reason that these movies endure is not just because TCM plays them, but because when. When movies got invented, it really. It's the most powerful thing human beings ever created. [00:36:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:36:12] Speaker A: The moving image, the power to change People's minds to, to lie to them. [00:36:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:36:21] Speaker A: To convince them that things that aren't are. [00:36:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:36:27] Speaker A: Is incredible. And it's, I know in, in my life from the first time that I, I, I grasped the power of these when I was a little kid, I was six years old at a, at Michael Gold's birthday party and his dad on a Super 8 projector put on from the library. I think we were able to rent Super 8 movies from the library in Baltimore county where I grew up. And he played Laurel and Hardy's big business. And in big business, Laurel and Hardy are Christmas tree salesman in Southern California, where it does not look like Christmas, of course. So right off the bat, you know, to an east coast kid, that was just hilarious. Even though that really, I guess that's part of the joke. But they ultimately are, they're not having a good day. And finally they, they go to James Finlayson's house and a bad day gets worse and they end up taking apart his house and he takes apart their truck. But the structure of the bits growing into this monumental bit, the, it wasn't just the comedy, but it was really the way the whole thing was put together, bringing you to a moment of ultimate crisis. And then it's over. I, yeah, I, I don't know. I, I was six years old and something about that stuck with me. And it wasn't just how incredibly funny it was. Something in me grasped, I don't know. [00:38:21] Speaker B: Yeah, it's, it's, I mean, movies have such a huge impact on our conception of reality. And, you know, there are people that move to Los Angeles because, you know, I mean, there's a whole genre of LA movies, right, that show Los Angeles as either, you know, this, this dream factory or this dark, seedy, you know, world of murder and mayhem. I mean, you can get an LA movie for what ails you, but people travel here, you know, based on the false promise, you know, that film has, has given them, you know, for, for good and for ill people. People learn about, you know, the sex from, from film, you know, and that kind of plays into their whole conception based on, you know, how things move, you know, how they, how things happen, you know, and that I, I think, you know, you can, people talk about, well, you shouldn't take the movies as truth. And that's very true, but unfortunately, you know, people do, you know, you learn about marriage and divorce from, from movies. You learn about death from movies, you know, so to say that I always laugh when people say movies don't have a Responsibility to the truth. And they don't. You know, there's. There's a whole, you know, history of film that has been about, you know, happy endings and high fantasy, but at the same time, going through that, you know, you also have to grapple with films, history of racism films, history of misogyny and ableism and all these things. Now, you know, that people say, well, now you, you know, you can't even have fun going to the movies. Well, you can. It's just understanding that film, as much as we love it, is selling us. They're selling us something. [00:40:13] Speaker A: You know, that was always the point. Yeah. When every year, when we get to the Oscars, what everyone forgets is that this is a. This was created as a way to generate publicity. [00:40:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:30] Speaker A: The Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences. That academy is a creation out of someone's head. [00:40:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:38] Speaker A: No Academy. I mean, yes, there is now, but really then it was just a word. It was a word choice. [00:40:45] Speaker B: It was a way for them to have a really good party and pat themselves on the back for job well done. And I mean, there are some people that say the Oscars are a popularity contest. They're, you know, there. There's all these different. [00:40:58] Speaker A: How can you compare things that you really. It's. If, if you really sit. Sit down and think about it. It. It's. It's a strange thing to ask. Compare these things that really aren't comparable and choose one that's bet that's the best of them all. What are you talking about? Why does there have to be. What they discovered when they named Wings the winner of the first best picture, it. It suddenly made people go back to the movie theater and watch it again. [00:41:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:41:33] Speaker A: And they realized that there was value in a movie being a best picture. [00:41:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:41:42] Speaker A: That's what it is. [00:41:43] Speaker B: And I think, you know, there's a reason. I think what was in that first Oscar ceremony, too, there was, you know, the. The most artistic movie, which went to Sunrise, and then there was the actual. You know. [00:41:56] Speaker A: That's exactly right. Yes. Yes. [00:41:57] Speaker B: The popular. The popular movie which we've been chasing at the Oscars for decades since. You know, it's why we expanded the pool to 10 nominees in the hopes of finding this amorphous blend between artistic achievement and movies people are, quote, unquote, actually seeing. [00:42:16] Speaker A: And. And you're absolutely right. I mean, Sunrise is one of the most amazing movies ever made. Murnau. Sunrise is really. Wow. [00:42:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:42:25] Speaker A: And that's when I think of movies that people should see. Sunrise is one of Those movies where, all right, everyone thinks silent movies. Well, there's no talking, so it's black and white usually. So it just. For most people, that's a very foreign experience. And silent movies are actually incredible storytelling experiences. [00:42:50] Speaker B: Yeah. That you really. That you really can't replicate. You know, these days, like, people. People find it hilarious that Mary Pickford played a child until she was, like, 36. But to watch a Mary Pickford movie, you know, you understand why she was able to do that. You know, I have a whole section in my book that I'm writing about Lon Chaney, and to watch an actual Lon Chaney senior movie, you know, the plots are bananas, for starters. They're hilarious. But his commitment to, you know, the bit of being the characters that he played, you know, is fantastic. The man who Laughs with Conrad Veidt is so heartbreaking. But then you can watch something like, you know, why be good with Colleen Moore? And it's a comedy and she's very funny. It's very modern for 1920s standards. It's all silent or a Marion Davies movie. You know, you can find the emotion in a lot of these films. It's just they require a bit more of your attention, as I've discovered, you know, because you can't look at your phone, you can't focus on other things, you know, otherwise you miss essential elements. [00:44:10] Speaker A: I would. I think the boxing scene in City Lights is still incredibly funny. It's just ingenious. And the ending of City Lights is the epitome of personal tragedy. [00:44:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:44:29] Speaker A: In a. In an image. [00:44:32] Speaker B: I mean, words would never. [00:44:34] Speaker A: Words would not make that better. [00:44:36] Speaker B: No. And I mean, I. You know, City Lights and I have a complex history because of, you know, Virginia Shirrill's characters. [00:44:44] Speaker A: Yes, yes, yes, yes. [00:44:45] Speaker B: The blind girl. But I think what makes that. That movie still stand out is the fact that so many of these actors, like a Charlie Chaplin, like Lon Chaney, created characters first and Persona second. You know, you didn't know what Charlie Chaplin was doing in his personal life, you know, just as well was making. Unless it was making headlines. You know, you didn't know what Lon Chaney senior was doing at the end of the day, unless he was at a public appearance. You. There was a remove from these actors, and you never believed that the characters. Well, I don't know if I'm sure people believed Lon Chaney was the characters he was playing, but you didn't know, you know, and then even once the studio system really takes hold in the 20s and 30s and 40s, you know, actors had very cultivated images. You know, they were giving very structured interviews to press. There was nothing that was not controlled by a studio. You did not know one damn thing about these people that they did not want you to know. You know, And I think that's something that we see now, only it's everybody, right? Everybody now is cultivating their own image. Everybody now is curating their Persona. You know, it's more controlled than ever. And yet everybody's chasing this one thing, which is like, I have to be my most authentic self, but not authentic with a big A. You know, you want to be the conception of what you think people are going to buy into. [00:46:23] Speaker A: Although back in the day, there were some people on the press side of the equation who wielded a normal, an enormous power. Pettah Hopper, Llewella Parsons. [00:46:34] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, Hearst in general, you know, and I think that's what's interesting, you know, in talking about the changes now between the media and the entertainment industry is that, you know, both sides had to play ball, you know, in certain ways. You know, Hedda and Luella cultivated relationships with these people, and if you piss them off, they were going to write shitty articles about you. But if you kept them in your good graces and you maintained a relationship, you know, Hedda Hopper was invited to parties at these people's houses. Like there was a transactional friendship that exists, you know, between them that kept the trains on the tracks. You know, Hearst was very much a figure that was able to destroy Orson Welles's life by posting all this stuff and, you know, not doing publicity for Citizen Kane. At the same time, him and Marion Davies at, you know, Hearst Castle invited all of these Hollywood people to dinner. Like, they interacted with these people far more, you know, and nowadays, you know, you would never. I don't know, any celebrity that would tell a Washington Post journalist, like, come down, come to my house on a Sunday. You're not going to write anything. Like, come on over. That would never happen. [00:47:54] Speaker A: Indeed. Why does movie criticism matter? [00:48:03] Speaker B: I think it matters in the sense that, you know, there's. There's a financial element. People don't want to spend their money on something that is not good. So there's. There's that on the, you know, surface level, you want to know if something's worth investing your time and your money into. On the other. On the other hand, you know, film criticism reminds people why movies matter and why movies are flawed. You know, I think what people respond to in my criticism is the Fact that if I think a movie is, you know, misogynist, I will tell people that, you know, like, you're gonna have to compartmentalize. The women in here really want to know, you know, or, you know, if something's ableist, you know, I will tell people that, you know, they want to know that somebody understands the issues inherent in film, you know, and is letting people know that, you know. And I think at the same time, you know, the best critics, you know, like Roger Ebert, like a Pauline Kale, you know, wield influence in a way where people do kind of feel like they know you. You know, like, this person likes this movie. So therefore I think I will like this. So you're. You're not only helping somebody figure out what to. To spend their precious time on, but at the same time, they're reading you, being like, I understand why this movie matters and why this movie matters to the critic or why it does it. [00:49:33] Speaker A: Wow. [00:49:36] Speaker B: Which is. Which is why I hate writing articles all the time about how it's doomed and we're all. We're all screwed. Yeah. [00:49:42] Speaker A: Which. [00:49:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:49:44] Speaker A: I mean. All right. Which kind of brings me to the last question I had, which is what separates film criticism from what's happening now? [00:49:53] Speaker B: Well, what's happening now, you know, is I. It's the rise of the influencer, you know, and it was something. It's something that's always existed to a degree. You know, you're always gonna. You've always. We've seen street teams, right back in the 2000s and the 90s, you. Street teams, you know, which was like people that would go from, like, shopping malls and remind you that this thing existed, usually bands. But now what we're seeing with the rise of social media is that studios are supporting and catering to influencers. These are not people that have any type of critical background, in many instances, don't have any film connection. You know, it's just they're really good at cultivating an audience and selling stuff. [00:50:36] Speaker A: So what we're seeing, they're good at social media. [00:50:39] Speaker B: They're good at social media. They're good at selling a Persona of them on social media. And what we're seeing is that, you know, these. These influencers are seeing movies early. They're telling people to go see it because most of it is essentially pay for play. So they're getting stuff in return for a positive review. And it's. It's shutting out a lot of actual critics from movies and opportunities that they need to do their job. So you're seeing Influencers interview celebrities. You're seeing them at premieres, you're seeing them on red carpets like they are film critics only on steroids. And most of the time the film. [00:51:16] Speaker A: Critics who were being paid. [00:51:18] Speaker B: Exactly. They're not even. Yeah, they're, they're essentially there to just be corporate chills. I mean, that's, you know, I, I wrote an article, a couple couple last year and you know, one of the influencers I talked to, you know, I said, well, are you able to say if you don't like something? And they're like, well, you know, I would never say I don't like something. I just wouldn't say anything. Think. Right. So you're saying that you wouldn't say anything bad. If it's not positive, then you're not, you can't. [00:51:48] Speaker A: So you cannot be honest. [00:51:49] Speaker B: Yeah. And that's really what they want, you know, and that's really the unspoken agreement, which is the influencer is not going to be honest. [00:51:57] Speaker A: Right. [00:51:57] Speaker B: And the, the studio is going to be happy about that. Either way, they get butts and seats because the influencer has the ability to generate audiences. You know, and student. Right now, studios are very, very fearful. You know, the movie theater has not come back in the same way as it has pre pandemic. So they're working every angle they can to get people to go into a theater. If an influencer tells you you're gonna, they're gonna do it, and they have 10 million followers, even if 10% of that following comes to the movies, that you're in a better position. And even if the influencer doesn't say anything because they don't like it, they're still gonna get people to go, go see it because they're at least going to mention that it's a thing, whereas a film critic is going to be honest there. And, you know, newspapers are dying. Digital is definitely, you know, with the pivot to video. You know, there's, there's. Studios don't find any value in film critics unless it is award season. And then you will get, you know, critics groups are invited to all this stuff. But even then it's purely for awards voting, you know, so it's not even really the criticism of it. It's to get their vote so that they can put that on their poster and say, this, this movie, you know, swept all the critics orgs. [00:53:19] Speaker A: What's the solution? [00:53:21] Speaker B: You know, I wrote about that and I've asked some, some questions about it, you know, and there, there aren't any, you know, I had a, had another influencer, a very sweet girl, you know. Tell me. Well, there's no reason that film critics can't just get on social media and do what they do online, you know, just, just make videos. And it's not as simple as transitioning. It's not as simple as pivoting to video, you know, because that's not what the goal is. The, the belief is that the studios are limiting access because they want omnipotent praise. And even if a critic is on social media and is gaining a following, the access is still going to be contingent on what they're saying. So, you know, I know a lot of people have talked about the possibility of criticism transitioning into more film analysis and doing more kind of long form essays about themes and, you know, kind of cultivating more articles as opposed to reviews. Some people have talked about transitioning to academia, you know, and teaching, you know, which is, academia is rife with its own problems right now and the lack of jobs, but that is an option. And other people have just kind of been like, well, it's my hobby. It's never going to make me rich. I'm never gonna, you know, get, get to be where I'm never going to get to be Roger Ebert and Colin Kale. So I'm happy with the few movies I get to see. And, and that's where I'm at. And, you know, that's, that's unfortunate because there are so many people that are pivoting to other industries or leaving journalism behind, you know, and I do worry that in the Next, you know, 10 years it's going to look like it did in the 90s, which was, you know, if you had to name a handful of critics, you could probably name three or four. They all worked for big newspapers or big, big trades and they were all men, you know, So I do worry about whether we're going to see a backslide into, you know, marginalized critics just being like there's no benefit anymore, you know, and, and we're gonna be talking in 20 years again about, you know, film criticism doesn't have any people of color. Film criticism doesn't have any women. So it's a very, it's a, it's always been dark. It just feels like a darker time than it usually is. [00:55:37] Speaker A: Nonetheless, we need it. [00:55:39] Speaker B: We do. I mean, people assume that film criticism is a bunch of entitled journalists who just want to talk to celebrities, you know, or just want to see movies early. I, I joke all the time about how when I got into this job, you know, if I could just see movies early, I would be so happy. But you know, film critics are journalists. In many instances, they're, they're doing double duty. They're writing other things about these movies. So to, to say that film criticism doesn't have any bearing anymore is to say that film journalism doesn't have any bearing anymore. And unless we're all doing news aggregation, it's not important. And you're going to lose a lot of really good writers because of that. [00:56:26] Speaker A: Where can people find you, Kristen? There's, there's your substack Christomania. [00:56:33] Speaker B: Yeah, it's at kristenlopez.substack.com I'm on all social media because, because of course I am@Kristen Lopez 88. And you can find my official [email protected]. [00:56:46] Speaker A: And of course we, we shouldn't forget Ticklish Business, your incredible film film podcast that's always an incredible delight to listen to. [00:56:56] Speaker B: It is. Yeah, we just, we just did an episode on the Shining to close out Halloween. So you can find that wherever you get podcasts. We also have a Patreon that does all sorts of extra stuff that I don't have any time for, but I still do it, which [email protected] ticklish biz. [00:57:14] Speaker A: It. It's a, it's a perilous time to, to be doing what we're all doing because we all have to figure out ways to monetize. [00:57:22] Speaker B: Yep. [00:57:22] Speaker A: What we do. [00:57:23] Speaker B: Chasing that almighty dollar. [00:57:25] Speaker A: It is. But you got to pay the rent. And the thing is, the time it takes to create the content is one thing. The time it takes to sell it. [00:57:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:57:35] Speaker A: Oh my God. [00:57:36] Speaker B: Or sometimes the time it takes to put it together, you know, like editing and you know, look at your favorite youtuber or Tick Tocker and notice, I mean, that's again an element of film criticism. Notice how many cuts are in a two minute video, you know, and how closely they're editing certain things. That's always the hard thing for me when I'm know, yelling at my phone. Trying to edit a video on Tik Tok is just like, you know, how, how is it so rehearsed with all these Tik Tokers? Well, that's because they have people that can go through and edit everything very closely. [00:58:17] Speaker A: Oh, don't get me started. It's nice having staff, you know, but yes. Well, my, my, my two friends James Janiece and Chelsea Rebecca, who have a website and a podcast called Dead Meat where they do the Body counts in, in horror movies usually. And every single, Every single death. They. They review it. They have 6 million subscribers. Oh, lucky that 6 million subscribers has. Now they have advertisers and staff. [00:58:50] Speaker B: Yeah, that. [00:58:52] Speaker A: This bought them a house, an actual house out way out in the valley, but it bought them a house. So I take great comfort from that because, you know, if you can do it, I can do it. That means at some point it's possible. [00:59:14] Speaker B: That's the dream. You. Right? I mean, that's, you know, we talk about what film is selling us and what, what influencers are selling us, you know, and I know that, you know, there's a huge increase and I. Every couple of months I read a story about, you know, this, this influencer only works 10 hours a week and makes, you know, $150,000 a year. But you know, what, what people. And that's selling the dream, right, that you can, you know, quit your job and podcast full time, or you can quit your job and do YouTube videos all day. But what people don't understand, you know, they don't tell you is the consistency of it, you know, building a following, the time it takes to produce. And that's really what you are, is a producer, you know, and, and that is something that I, I'm interested to see what the next 10 years looks like because we're either going to get an influx of producer directors, you know, who have been. Who have been molded on TikTok and, you know, growing their, their brand, you know, entering filmmaking. And I don't know what that looks like. I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing, but I feel like it's something that's gonna blossom in the next couple of years, one. [01:00:29] Speaker A: Way or the other. [01:00:30] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Whether we like it or not. [01:00:33] Speaker A: What was it the name that George W. Bush had for Karl Ro T? Blossom. [01:00:41] Speaker B: It's either something to celebrate or mourn, and I'm not really clear on what, you know, but I, as I, as I talk about on the sub stack, you know, we, we're at this point, we're just welcoming our new overlords with open arms. And I, I don't know how to feel about it, but I can't avoid it either. So. [01:00:58] Speaker A: See, one more incredibly quotable line you gotta. You gotta follow Kristen. It's hey. And subscribe. It's worth it. Literally. She is such a lovely writer. She's funny, she's insightful, and she's. She's got a point of view that's so particular. And she's so right. [01:01:17] Speaker B: Oh, thank you. [01:01:19] Speaker A: That's a whole other thing. Hey, I'm a fan. She's doing a book about Tales from the Crypt. What do you want? I'm. [01:01:24] Speaker B: I'm such a. I mean, exactly. I was gonna say. Yeah. I mean, you're. You're biased because I've been absolutely. The Tales from the Crypt book. [01:01:32] Speaker A: So I'm biased, but I'm also. Right. [01:01:35] Speaker B: Exactly. I will take that. I will take. [01:01:37] Speaker A: There you go. Kristen, thank you so much for sitting in. And, hey, setting the world right about criticism. The influencers. Screw you, influencers. [01:01:48] Speaker B: Trying to. Trying to. So. [01:01:51] Speaker A: Well, thank you again, Kristen, and we'll see you next time, everybody. The how not to Make a Movie podcast is executive produced by me, Alan Katz, by Gil Adler, and by Jason Stein. Our artwork was done by the amazing Jody Webster and Jason. Jody, along with Mando, are all the hosts of the fun and informative Dads from the Crypt podcast. Follow them for what my old pal the Crypt Keeper would have called terrorific Crypt content.