S3E48: Brandon Routh's Been Thinking

[00:00:00] Speaker A: This podcast is a collaboration between Costard and Touchstone Productions and the Dads from the Crypt Podcast I've kissed the lips. [00:00:07] Speaker B: I kiss you Nice. What? I'm not afraid to hit a girl. I'm a rock star. [00:00:29] Speaker A: Hello and welcome to yeta. Another episode. Jeez, there's no getting rid of us of the how not to Make a Movie podcast. I'm still Alan Katz, and apparently there's no getting rid of me either. Our good friend Brandon Routh is one of those thoughtful actors. Some, by contrast, are more intuitive. They let their guts and gut instincts guide them and their creative choices. In most cases, their life choices too. But that's another conversation for another day in another podcast. I've no doubt that had Brandon become anything else, a doctor, a teacher, a business person, he'd have been just as thoughtful. But he's a storyteller. Trade being thoughtful, that's part of the gig. Maybe that's why he's so good at it. It's why Brandon made and still makes an excellent Superman. Superman is kind of unique among superheroes because where he comes from gives him a unique perspective on humanity as a whole. Batman's secret, by contrast that he's Batman, well that's important to Gotham City, which is where Bruce Wayne comes from. His perspective can never not be earthbound or really Gotham City centric. Superman comes from a whole other planet and a whole other solar system in some other faraway part of the universe. He has perspective Batman could never have. And unlike Batman type superheroes, which is pretty much everyone other than Superman, Superman is Superman. He wardrobes up to become Clark Kent, Batman and all the others. Well, the man's real name is Bruce Wayne. Being Batman is just one of the ways that Bruce Wayne spends his time and money. The point of all this is that casting Superman is far more challenging as a result than casting Batman. In large part because the character of Batman has so much more latitude. You can cast Adam west and it works, or George Clooney or Christian Bale. It still works. Those actors have all characterize Batman quite differently. Some dark, some light, some tormented, some pretty laid back. The character of Batman hasn't suffered one iota. Neither is the franchise. This makes casting Superman a very different process, perversely because of how acting for the camera works, which is to say the camera will see all acting and will have to cut it out. The most emotionally honest actor is going to play the best. Honesty goes hand in hand with good acting, and good acting. It goes hand in hand with honesty. It really is that simple. Brandon is open book, honest, and thoughtful as hell. That's because he literally thinks about everything all the time, like a tick. It's truly noteworthy that Americans, more than anyone, are obsessed with superheroes. Why that is. Well, that's still another conversation in probably a bunch of new podcasts. Suffice it to say that Americans not only imagine more superheroes than anyone else, we grow tired of and abandon more superheroes than anyone else. I'm sure that's a record of some kind. I'm just not sure it's a record we want. I've known and worked with a couple of actors who've donned the red cape. Christopher Reeve did one of the most popular episodes of Tales from the Crypt, what's Cookin, which Gil and I wrote and which Gil directed. And Chris's whole career was impacted by that one particular role he played. That role has impacted every actor who's played it one way or another. How did playing Superman impact Brandon's life? Brandon Ralph's been thinking about that. [00:04:25] Speaker B: Usually if it's a story that's my own, I am not a great storyteller of my own stories. In the past, you've started off the. [00:04:33] Speaker A: Conversation with an interesting. Okay, let's go off to the side. I don't care. Okay. [00:04:38] Speaker B: Why do you suppose that I'm all about the side. [00:04:41] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hey, I'm happy to go down an interesting pathway. [00:04:45] Speaker B: I don't want to stop your thought, but does my hair look crazy? I can put on a. I have a beanie. [00:04:50] Speaker C: You look great. [00:04:51] Speaker B: It's so long. I need to get it cut. I don't even know what to do. Okay. [00:04:54] Speaker A: I stopped dealing with a long time ago. [00:04:56] Speaker B: I know. I'm sorry. [00:04:58] Speaker A: I'm the worst person to ask. [00:05:00] Speaker C: Yeah, you look, Brandon. You look great. But then again, this is coming from two guys who care. [00:05:09] Speaker A: You're asking the wrong room, man. So why do you think it is you have problems telling your own stories? [00:05:17] Speaker B: This is a Lovely question at 11:11. I think it's because, I mean, it's multifactorial. Many things are. But I think one reason is because I've told myself internally and unconsciously, people don't care and they don't want to hear it. So that kind of thing, you know, that's an interest. [00:05:37] Speaker A: That's a very. So interesting that you said so. [00:05:40] Speaker B: Self defeatist. So I'm defeating myself before I'm telling, and I'm like, excusing myself before I'm telling the story. [00:05:46] Speaker A: All right. I'm Glad I asked that question. And I'm glad you gave that answer, because as I was doing my research just to get to know you, before we had this conversation, I watched a. [00:05:56] Speaker B: Couple of you talk to my therapist. [00:05:59] Speaker A: Well, you know, I did not talk, but there were some back and forth. But, you know, that was off the record. Of course. But I watched a couple of interviews you did with Michael Rosen. [00:06:10] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:06:11] Speaker A: My biggest takeaway was that you and I have very similar stories in that we were both on a particular career trajectory. [00:06:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:06:22] Speaker A: That suddenly veered wildly off course. And for you it was Superman Returns and what happened afterwards. For me, it was the movie that Gil and I did called Bordello with Blood. And you know, really, in the aftermath of Bordello and Blood, my, my career went a whole other direction. I, I, Yeah, it just kind of crashed and burned for the better part of two decades. You did much better. You, you, you did far better than I did. But really, there's that suddenly finding yourself in a wilderness you did not expect yourself to be in, and it's very disconcerting. And like I said, I suddenly I felt such a. [00:07:05] Speaker B: Kinship. [00:07:07] Speaker A: Yes. [00:07:07] Speaker B: Connection. [00:07:08] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And so I thought from, I understand something about you from the get go. And like I said, it makes talking about it really. I'm not asking you questions as an outsider. I'm comparing notes with you. Let's start with life before Superman. [00:07:32] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:07:34] Speaker A: You third or four children, you grew up in Iowa. You're a distant relative of President Franklin Roosevelt. [00:07:43] Speaker B: I think the Internet said that. [00:07:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:07:46] Speaker B: I've never heard news to me because. [00:07:48] Speaker A: All right, if this is other than. [00:07:50] Speaker B: Somebody else quoting Wikipedia or something, who. [00:07:53] Speaker A: Who the hell wrote your Wikipedia entry? Now really, this is, you know, this is as much a part of our, our, our public relations as anything else because it's, it's self writing. If, if you didn't put that there, who the did? [00:08:08] Speaker B: I don't know. I don't, I have no idea. I have no idea. And that's, and then, I mean, I, I would, it's, that's not that far back. So I think I would like my family would know if we were. So I mean, it's, if we are. It's like you're. Oh, so are you guys. Did you know we're all related to each other because we all live on Earth and we're all human beings? Well, indeed, indeed. [00:08:30] Speaker A: You've never done 23andMe. [00:08:33] Speaker B: Well, yeah, but it doesn't say that. I don't not gotten any. [00:08:38] Speaker A: You would. You would think that would be. That would be something. Because it's not too distantly related. Wow. Wikipedia. [00:08:44] Speaker B: Somebody way back, way back, like a ruler, a French guy or somebody, you know, like 900, 1100 A.D. there's some mention in my 23andMe. One thing that I, as I know with some certainty or some interesting or confirmation is that the name Ralph is by a gentleman who is in Texas. A lot of routes in Texas. I guess a gentleman like 30 years ago did a whole, like, genealogy thing and traced the name Ralph all the way back to the town of Rouse in England and kind of like near. Near. Near Manchester, near. [00:09:36] Speaker A: Near Wrexham. The. [00:09:38] Speaker B: Yes. William the Conqueror came over with the Normans. He was a Norman. [00:09:43] Speaker C: You did. When you. When you studied, when you studied about him, they didn't say Uncle Willie to you, did they? [00:09:48] Speaker B: No. Uncle. No Uncle Willie. No, because it wasn't Uncle Willie. You know, adopted. Like, like, you know, like, extra, extra bonus. Uncle. William the Conqueror came over. [00:10:03] Speaker A: Are the Ralph. Are the Ralphs in the Domesday Book? Who in the Domesday Book? You know, after William the Conqueror conquered England, he took stock of everything that was there, and he created a thing called the Domesday Book, and that was really taking stock of everyone and everything that was in England. And you might yet be. You might be able to. [00:10:25] Speaker B: I don't know. That's very interesting. I'm not aware of that. And when they conquered this. This part of England, he gave land to Sir Something. Sir Bedivere, one of the Knights of the Round Table. No, Sir. I think it was an R. So a name. One of his right hand hand men. And it was the town of Ralph. It was already there. It's for like hard earth or hard dirt or something is Ralph something is the. Is the definition, I guess. And the people then his people, his land, adopted the name Ralph. [00:11:10] Speaker A: I got you. Okay. I got you. [00:11:12] Speaker B: So that's where Ralph. I don't know if people are called Ralph there or that he married into and extended the route line this. This Commander, but that. [00:11:25] Speaker A: That's really cool. So probably, yeah, if. If it comes from a town, it's in the Domesday Book. [00:11:30] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:31] Speaker A: I love history. So right off the bat, that just stuff like that blows me away. You know, when we were shooting Crypt the last season in England, you know, we got to. We got to work in set mode in locations we could only have dreamed of before. We shot one episode in a place called Dorney Court, which is owned by the man whose relative built it 600 years ago. [00:11:56] Speaker B: Wow. [00:11:59] Speaker C: It was so cold. I can't imagine it was like 600 years ago. This was with heat. [00:12:04] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:12:06] Speaker C: Cold and damp. It was awful. [00:12:08] Speaker A: But a great location. I mean, it looks so cool, but I don't know, I find the fact that you trace, you can trace yourself back to this, in this place. I, I, that's very cool. Yeah. [00:12:21] Speaker B: Someday I'm gonna go. Someday I'm going to go to the town of Ralph. Someday soon I'm gonna go and check it out. There's a church of Ralph. [00:12:34] Speaker A: The FDR connection is. How about the Jason Momo? [00:12:37] Speaker B: It took us somewhere, though. It took us somewhere. The FDR did take us somewhere. [00:12:40] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, we, we wandered. We found our way back. All right, so the FDR connection is bullshit. How about the Jason Momoa connection? [00:12:50] Speaker B: Yes, I am related to Jason Momoa. [00:12:52] Speaker C: He is. [00:12:54] Speaker B: The world should know. Half brother's on my dad's side. [00:12:57] Speaker A: That's so interesting. How did you do that? [00:13:02] Speaker B: Wait on my. Did I do that joke. Okay. There was a joke somewhere. I don't know if I think I couldn't do all the calculations as I was speaking, but there's a funny there somewhere. He, Jason is from the same town that I'm from in Norwalk, Iowa. That is true. That is true. We did, we did grow up in the same town together playing soccer for years and years and years on the same high school, you know, team as well. [00:13:31] Speaker A: And what was in the water that it produced? Two guys who ended up making superhero movies. Holy shit. [00:13:41] Speaker B: Two completely opposite guys. [00:13:44] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you don't, you don't look the same. [00:13:48] Speaker B: No, we don't look the same. And we're not the same. I mean, we're not the same warrior. We're not the same person. [00:13:52] Speaker A: No, no, no. Wouldn't cast, be the same. [00:13:54] Speaker B: No, you wouldn't cast the same. I don't know. I know. It's a very interesting, it's a, it's a very interesting thing. I don't, I don't, I don't know if there's a study, a case study of this anywhere else in. Because the population of Norwalk is, was 6 or 7,000 when I was growing up. Okay. I graduated a class of 156 kids and Jason was a year ahead of me in school, but he's only a couple years older than I am. I wonder if anybody here's a question. I don't, I don't know if I wonder if anybody asks him, hey, friend. Ralph. He's become so such a, like a Household name. It's astonishing. It's amazing. Jokes about him all the time on just TV shows. Like non sequ. Words of Jason Momoa joke. We weren't friends in high school. I didn't have any friends for one. And I don't know if he had any either, because he was one kid looking like Jason Momoa in a town where everyone looked like me, you know, in a state where everyone looked like me. So he didn't. He had it rough and nobody understood what he was really going through. So. So we unfortunately didn't connect at that time until we were adults, and now we have. And, you know. [00:15:15] Speaker A: You know, it's funny, I was going to ask you, you know, why is it you didn't have any friends? You know, you. You said you were. Although you were in. You were a theater kid. [00:15:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:15:28] Speaker A: So, you know, so you had friends in the theater. [00:15:30] Speaker B: I had friends in school. [00:15:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:15:33] Speaker B: I had. I was social. Goodness. I was social and had friends at school. I. That I had outside of school. I had no friends. [00:15:44] Speaker A: Would you describe yourself as awkward. [00:15:48] Speaker B: To this day? [00:15:51] Speaker A: I mean, and this is why you don't think you have a story to tell, which is. Which is not the truth at all. But, you know, the whole reason we're having this conversation is because you have a terrific story to tell. [00:16:03] Speaker B: Yes, I was awkward. It was not to go into whole bunch of my childhood, but I was. I was. I was. I mean, you can't. You can't really write it any better or give a better comparison than to say I was Clark Kent. I mean, I, you know, I very much like that character Goody Two Shoes, which, Which caught up with me when I was in seventh, eighth grade as kids were experimenting and doing things that the parents wouldn't be happy about and they might get in trouble for. I think naturally people realized, like, I was going to be a buzzkill and maybe you were that kid on everybody, because I was. I was the kid. I was the. I was the kid at the Boy Scout birthday party. It was a party for one of our Boy Scouts in our. In a troop. And we're having fun and we go in and we're evening time. I think we're. I think we're like 10, 11. 11 years old. And you said. [00:17:15] Speaker C: And you said. [00:17:16] Speaker A: You said you were a Boy Scout. [00:17:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:17:18] Speaker A: A literal Boy Scout. [00:17:20] Speaker B: Well, yeah. I mean, I was on my way to. To be. [00:17:22] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But. [00:17:23] Speaker B: But, yeah, yes, yes, I was a Boy Scout. Okay. And. And I was not a great Boy Scout. But. And we're watching. We're all. We got sleeping bags watching the movie. Go to after the good party that we had. Friends party, all the guys. And the movie is Top Gun and. Right. Yes, that was the movie. And it's PG13, but I'm 10 or 11, so I'm under my covers because I'm not supposed to be watching the PG13 movie. [00:18:09] Speaker A: Oh, I knew kids like you. Oh, man, I absolutely. I know who you were. Oh, my God. I know who you were. [00:18:17] Speaker B: One more story about that. It's because it's movies. It's movies around the same age. I think I was. I must have been younger, I think, because Back to Future came out much earlier than I remember in theaters. It's like out in 87 or something. So this memory. I thought I was older in this memory. So it must have been. If it was 87, I must have been maybe I was eight at most. I was eight. So I was seven or eight, I guess. And. And we were going to the movies and. And my sister, who is two years older, so she was nine or 10. She's still not old enough, man. It went with my older brother, who's 11 years older, to see Back to the Future. They were saying Back to the Future. I didn't get to see Back to the Future because Back to the Future was rated PG13. So guess which movie I saw. Anybody else remember what movie was playing when Back to the Future came out? The movie I saw with it, I think my parents, was Cocoon. [00:19:23] Speaker C: Oh. [00:19:24] Speaker A: Oh, boy. Well. [00:19:25] Speaker B: And Cocoon gave me nightmares. [00:19:32] Speaker C: From the. [00:19:32] Speaker B: Pause opening for years. I was like, gee, mom, dad saved me. [00:19:41] Speaker A: But as you know yourself, Brandon, parenting is so hard. [00:19:45] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:19:48] Speaker A: It's so hard to get it right. [00:19:52] Speaker B: I wouldn't be telling this fun story. [00:19:54] Speaker A: Indeed. Well, as, as, as you. As we also all learn, our children are our parents. Revenge upon us in, in, in. In particular ways. It's the payback we had coming to us. I. I know my son especially was. Oh, he argues the way that I argued. Oh, boy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's 24 now. He's really good. He's really good. [00:20:22] Speaker B: Be proud of yourself then. [00:20:24] Speaker A: Well, thank you. Thank you. And. And it sounds like you. You are, you are. You are filling the role as a very dedicated parent, too. We'll get there. Parenting is a very important part of the human experience. [00:20:37] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:20:39] Speaker A: I would say that parenting made me a better writer, without a doubt. Holy shit. Not even close. Oh, my God. I learned so much being a parent that I did not know before about. [00:20:52] Speaker B: Human beings, the depth of humanity and caring. And it's, it's, it's. It's the one way to really get you out of yourself, you know, more than just a significant other. Because it's not the same as, as, as. And it doesn't have to. I don't, I don't know that it has to be your child. I mean, you know, because we have these situations. But it's, it's that thing that you. That you are so invest that you, that you. That's your true connection. It's a true like heart and soul connection to, to, to an individual that you don't find. It's hard to create that or allow that with other people, but children and with people that you care for in that way, that you are the caregiver for nothing. [00:21:39] Speaker A: Nothing reveals your vulnerabilities in this world than having a child in your hands, having. Holding them and suddenly realizing really how vulnerable and yet how important this thing is. You feel so connected to everything. And not everyone has the same takeaways from this experience, alas. But hopefully, fortunately enough of us do that. We will hopefully get through this patch in time and, and remember how bonded we all really are. But there's, there's our sermon for now. Where'd you go to college? [00:22:21] Speaker B: I'm a proud Hawkeye at the. As an English major, I wanted to be a writer. I wanted to write fantasy novels basically was what I was going. What was my career path. And then I was going to go into graphic design to pay the bills until I wrote my first. My first blockbuster novel. Then maybe someday adapt it into screenplay and maybe I'd become an actor. I mean, I don't know. Maybe, you know, that's what people do. Right. [00:22:54] Speaker A: But, but your whole approach was really practical. [00:22:59] Speaker B: I've always strongly felt like the. I don't know, I don't always know where it's going, but you always felt like leading me more than I'm leading it. [00:23:08] Speaker A: But something out there that you had to head toward whatever the fuck it was, wherever the it was. I mean, you dropped out of college after one year and you went to hard. [00:23:19] Speaker B: I moved to Downey, California. [00:23:26] Speaker A: But the point of the exercise in moving from Iowa to Downey, which is not far from Los Angeles, was, Was. [00:23:34] Speaker B: To, you know, pursue acting. My great aunt and uncle Dan and Sue Brown were there on my mom's side and took good care of me when my kind of grandparents, you know, for a while because they were my second great grand aunt. Grandma. Yeah. So second they were my grandparents age. I went out to try it out for three months was the idea. [00:23:59] Speaker A: Why three months? [00:24:00] Speaker B: I think three months because the idea was then maybe I was going to go to New York and try acting. Excuse me. Modeling. I was in Iowa. Spring break happened on my freshman year. I went to a local modeling talent agency called Avant in Des Moines. That led to, hey, why didn't you go to this big thing called IMTA in New York where people go and they meet agents and managers from acting and modeling. Long story short, we did. I did that. That's where I met my first manager and acting modeling agent and managed just to come out to la. And then I did for three months, went to New York for a couple weeks to try modeling. I didn't like that. Never wanted to do that really. Anyway, just to make some money and never did really. And. And then, and then I. So then I went back to. I. I decided pretty early on into that three months I was gonna stay in LA because I booked my first gig in like a month of being out there. [00:25:14] Speaker A: What was the first thing you, you booked? [00:25:15] Speaker B: It was a TGI Friday show. You know, it used to be done on abc. Show called Odd Man Out. Marky Post was the mom. One month. [00:25:27] Speaker A: One month in. And you scored that? [00:25:29] Speaker B: I think it was one month in. Yeah. I was. I said five words. I'm at the end of the show. It's a sitcom, right? I don't know if. Live studio. My first job is a live studio audience. Like, that's, that's probably the worst for most people. It's probably the worst first like acting gig you could have. But my only experience really in acting had been on stage in doing comedy. The first play I ever did was Hide and Shriek and it was just like a farce of a sops fables, kind of. And they played a, like a hillbilly with a terrible southern accent and a hat on the head and. But I loved it. It was amazing. And hearing the roar of the crowd, that's the first, first spark of anything for me. But I loved the sitcom. I did it. I thrived. And I thought I was behind the stage like after the show or as we're filming the show going, this is it. Like this. I'm not. I'm doing this. I'm sold. I'm not going back to Iowa. [00:26:29] Speaker A: There's. There's nothing quite like learning that you can make people laugh in, in a live environment. That's. Yeah, that is super intoxicating. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That. That suddenly gets into your head and then you begin scheming. Suddenly, along comes Superman. There's a great scene in Kill Bill 2 where Bill, just before the final duel with, with Beatrice Kiddo, he talks about his theory about superheroes. He said, Batman is actually Bruce Wayne. Spider man is actually Peter Parker. When that character wakes up in the morning, he's Peter Parker. He has to put on a costume. [00:27:14] Speaker B: To become Spider Man. [00:27:17] Speaker A: And it is in that characteristic Superman stands alone. Superman didn't become Superman. [00:27:25] Speaker B: Superman was born Superman. When Superman wakes up in the morning, he's Superman. [00:27:31] Speaker A: And what are the characteristics of Clark Kent? He's weak, he's unsure of himself, He's a coward. Clark Kent is Superman's critique on the whole human race. Quentin has thought long and hard about some things that a lot of us don't think long and hard about. What do you disagree with the last part? [00:27:50] Speaker B: His critique that it's. [00:27:51] Speaker A: Oh, the Clark can't disregard critique of the whole human race. Oh, well, okay, yeah, no, that was Bill just ranting and raving before Beatrice kills him. [00:27:58] Speaker B: But the first part is, I mean, I was going to say that's. I can't remember the words. They were great words that he wrote. Can you. What was the first part that he says about, about Superman? This part? [00:28:11] Speaker A: Superman didn't become Superman. Superman was born Superman. When he wakes up in the morning, he's Superman. His alter ego ego is Clark. [00:28:19] Speaker B: Yeah. I would say my response to that is that is, well, maybe too big with things, but that's all our story. That's everyone's story. [00:28:29] Speaker A: But it's the universality that, that, that, that really gives it. Why, hey, why the fuck do we keep coming back to this character? [00:28:40] Speaker B: Because he's the, because he's one person who, who in a way is saying it's so for me, what Superman is. He's an alien. You know, another place. He's a human. He's a human. He is the same emotional, whatever, all that structure is the same as us. Right? So he's just able to sit in his own skin because, because he has powers that show that. He has these powers that show that his inner, that he, he has a great power. So he can have great power internally also. And, and it's okay to share that inner fortitude or compassion or empathy and all of the things, the wisdom that he has because you can justify it with his physicality somehow, and we don't as human. [00:29:27] Speaker A: I, I really. Absolutely. So, I mean, he's invincible, but not emotionally. Well, yeah, you know, he, he Is he is vulnerable emotionally. [00:29:43] Speaker B: Yes. [00:29:44] Speaker A: And that's, you know, in spite of all the superpower, he still, yes, there's kryptonite, but there's also that attachment to, to other living creatures. [00:29:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:29:56] Speaker C: I think that's what made our movie so different than any other movie about Superman before or since. [00:30:02] Speaker B: What I wanted to bring to it from all of my thinking and meditating at the time about Superman and what he was to me and to the world, rather than just a comic book. [00:30:21] Speaker A: Before they dragged you into this, Brandon, Warner Brothers spent over a decade developing a plan to relaunch this incredibly valuable franchise. You know, they, again, I keep asking the question, why do we keep coming back to the same three or four superheroes? And it is because it's hard to, hard to beat them. They seem to encompass so much. [00:30:49] Speaker B: Archetype is strong. [00:30:50] Speaker A: Yeah. Superman, Spider man, you know, the Peter Parker Spider man dynamic. Now, you know, I, I confess I'm not a superhero aficionado. I, I, but I, I appreciate, wow, how, how those universes were put together and suddenly you have a Marvel verse and a D.C. verse and, and it's, it's been great for, for a lot of creative people that these worlds were able to, to expand. Warner Brothers, you know, certainly, you know, they were trying to recapture something of, of Dick Donner's Superman that, you know, they wanted to forget about. What was it, was it Superman 3 that they wanted to forget about or forget which one? [00:31:42] Speaker B: I mean, both, but, but mostly three. More than four. I don't know. I don't know. [00:31:49] Speaker A: At what point, at what point did you join the process, Gil, in, in making Superman Returns? [00:31:56] Speaker C: Oh, pretty early on in that 10 year history. [00:32:00] Speaker A: Okay. [00:32:00] Speaker C: I was involved with Superman for about. [00:32:01] Speaker A: Four years, I think, before shooting started. [00:32:05] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, we had one, two, I think I had three or four directors. [00:32:10] Speaker A: What, what was that process, like, Universe? Warner Brothers was, was insane. [00:32:17] Speaker C: I mean, I, you know, I was finishing up Constantine and while I was finishing up, I was on the set, on the lot at Warner Brothers. I got noticing you need to go right away to see Alan Horn, who's the chairman of Warner Brothers. And I'm like, what? And I'm thinking, they're gonna fire me. They're gonna, they're gonna just drop me. What? Why would they? I only got three more weeks on Constantine. So I, I leave the set immediately. I go up to Alan Horn office and I'm like, you know, I go, alan, what? I do, you know, what, what, what am I doing here? And he goes, sit down, sit Down. And he sits there and he goes, so listen, I think robinoff was there as well. I think by then Lorenzo had left and robino might have been or might have been Lorenzo. And. And they look at me and they go, so we want to talk to you about your next movie. And I'm like, oh, oh, so. Oh, so you don't want to fire me? They look at me and they go, fire you? Are you out of your mind? So I said, well, oh, what's the next movie? And they get. They have a script and they turn it around and they push it to me on the other side of the table. And on it it says, fly by. And I go, what's flyby? And they go, you know, flyby? And I go, no, I don't know. Fly by. What's flyby? And they go, superman. I go, superman, are you crazy? I'm not doing that. And I push the script back to them and I go, you've been trying to make this for seven years. This is what's going to happen. You're going to waste a year of my life. You're going to pay me. Well, the end of the year I'm going to be so pissed off because I didn't do anything. So I don't want to do this. I'm not doing it. And I left. I went back to the set. So the next day I had a phone call come back up to see Alan horn. So we go up there and he goes, how can we work this out so that it makes sense for you to do this? We really want, you know, you're the guy to do this with us, blah, blah, blah. And I go, I don't know. I mean, I can't ask you to have final say in any of this because it's, you know, your money, your studio, your property. But how do I get to the point where I'm not going to be upset when you say we're not making the movie? Because whatever reason, the script, the act, location, whatever. And so we spent weeks talking about that and trying to figure out why and how I would feel comfortable doing that. And we. We sort of came up to a semi thing, but. But I knew ultimately they could stop the picture, you know, and they should be able to stop the picture. It's their property, their money. But we made it so that, well, if we had a script that did this and had a budget that did that, then it really. I was narrowing out the elements that they could say no to. And finally I agreed to do it when I Came on. There was one director, and then he left. And another director. [00:35:14] Speaker A: Who was the director when you started? [00:35:16] Speaker C: Brett Ratner. He was on for about a week while I was on. And then I walked in one day, and I said, where's Brad? I want Brad. I want to talk to him. And they say, he's not here. And I go, okay, well, when he gets in, I come into my office. And they said, no, no, no, no, he's not coming back. And I went, where'd he go? I know nothing. So then that, you know, and I. I thought, okay, that's the end of that. I'm leaving. And then they said, no, no, no, we got somebody else. And then it was McGee. And we. McGee and I worked a year on the project, and then one day he said to me, you know, I can't get on a plane. It was always going to be in Australia because I can't get on a plane. I go, what do you mean, you can't get on a plane? Anyway, we went through that. That's a whole other story. I don't want to. I don't want to. Brenda's time. [00:36:00] Speaker A: You auditioned for McGee at first? [00:36:03] Speaker B: Yeah. Yes, I did. Yes. The road to get to that audition is a very interesting story, but I could. I could spend a long time talking about that. [00:36:12] Speaker A: It's up to you. If you want to tell it, tell it. We'll go there with you. [00:36:16] Speaker B: Okay. My path to be in the position that we are in right now, speaking about this thing in my life is just fascinating to me as I've gone back and looked at the connections and the steps and all of the things, and. Because I'm very curious about how I am, where I am often, and here. [00:36:42] Speaker A: Here, here, here, here, here. [00:36:47] Speaker B: And so fast forward to the. My college experience and going to inta. Meeting my first manager at this, you know, big, big cattle call. Like, thousands of people there. 1 2% of them are actually going to get signed with somebody and become, you know, do anything with it. 5.5% actually make any money at Be Me. [00:37:17] Speaker A: You. You were one of them. [00:37:19] Speaker B: I was one of them. And there are a couple other people, hand people that are still working. My first manager, my first meeting was a gentleman, a lovely gentleman, Jeff Maroney. And he had a management company with Beverly Strong and. And said I was at a meeting with him, and, you know, he was like, oh, so, you know, I think you really. You got a great look, and, you know, you're a little green. And then I found out what that meant. But, you know, you got a good looking. And you. Has anybody ever told you that you look like Christopher Reeve? And I was like, no. Well, you do. And I'm a big fan. And you know, if there's ever a Superman movie or film, I'm definitely going to get you, get you in on that because you'd probably have a good shot at that. And I was like, okay, cool. And that was the first time I've ever had that, that I recall anybody mentioning that to me. So then Fast forward to 2000. [00:38:14] Speaker A: What was, what was. All right, so, but, but someone says this thing to you and you know, you know what this franchise is. You, you know what that is. You, you know, you had seen Christopher Reeves work in Superman. You. Does this connect in any way in your head? Is this, this beyond fantastical? Is there any. Does any part of you go, you know what? [00:38:39] Speaker B: Well, it does because. Yeah, because I'm from Iowa, because I am rather like Clark Kent and have been. Certainly was at that time in my life more even. It all made sense and it's comedy and I love that movie and I had fond memories of watching that movie. But also throwing up because I had, I was so excited from jumping around, assuming before it came on TV that I gave myself a migraine headache or whatever. I had a migraine headache. Who knows if I gave it to whatever. I had a migraine headache and was throwing up, laying on the couch with a metal bull below me, like you know, throwing up through, through most of the movie. And that was my first Superman experience. But I had my pajamas. My mom still has my Superman pajamas. A little cape. That's my, that's my first Superman memory and experience. [00:39:24] Speaker A: It touched you? [00:39:28] Speaker B: I don't, I don't know. I mean, yes, I obviously it did, but I don't know the thoughts leading up to a kid, a five year old kid, six year old kid being excited to watch Superman. I just, I remember jumping, literally jumping on. My brain says a couple jumps on the couch and this and then stick and throwing up. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but good enough. [00:39:48] Speaker A: So. So you weren't up to the wire work at that point? [00:39:51] Speaker B: No. Yeah, not yet. I also had a dream probably around the same age. I know from 6 to 8, it feels like age 6 to 9. I don't know. I had a dream that I was flying and a big metropolitan, metropolitan city. I was flying as a kid. I was, you know, whatever age I was at the time, flying and you know, like this. And around me also flying were koalas that were wearing capes and the movie was filmed in Australia. [00:40:33] Speaker C: Wow. [00:40:34] Speaker B: What is that? What is that? I have no idea. So putting those, A couple of those factors into. In my general naivete and glass half full attitude, went out to Los Angeles thinking, yeah, sure, it might happen. It could be Superman someday. Why not? Who better than I? And. [00:40:59] Speaker A: And Bryan Singer gets the gig to. He comes aboard as the. As the director of Superman Returns. And he had seen your audition for McJig. [00:41:11] Speaker B: Yes. So in that whole thing, which I will tell much more concisely, I can't. That's a whole. That's a whole nother podcast about this whole. This whole weirdness. I was working at Lucky Strike as a bartender. I just gotten a job there and I dressed up for a Halloween costume because I needed to make money because I was working Halloween night and there was like a hundred dollar prize, 100 prize for employee that dressed. And this Superman thing is kind of built for me a little bit. Like, it'd been like a, like a, you know, and so I dressed up as a picture that's, you know, kind of a famous picture or was back in the day of me a Superman shirt with, you know, suit over it. And I put a little wire in my tire and made it go back this way. And I got glasses Clark. And I was. I was Clark. Turning into. [00:42:07] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:42:08] Speaker B: And I won 100 bucks. It was huge. And my friend Terence took a picture or had a picture taken and. And then he put it on his, like, Facebook or MySpace or whatever. Friendster or whatever it was back in the day. And that's a picture that people took and used. That was October of 2003. Prior to that, prior to that meeting I had, I ended up at a birthday party with a woman who was the assistant to J.J. abrams. Okay, I didn't know this at the time. I'm having conversation with. She's like, oh, Daniel, you look a lot like Superman. Has anybody ever told you that? I was like, oh, yeah, my man. You know, my manager and I, oh, well, my boss is, you know, writing the, the next Superman movie. And it's like, oh, really? It's like, yeah, and you'd be great for it. I was like, really? Well, no, I thought they were, they were doing the Nick Cage thing. Like, I'm too old for that. No, no, they're doing a whole nother thing. He's younger and all this stuff. I go, oh, wow. My brain is just like on fire. I'm just like, you know, if you're giving me my. Your headshot you know, maybe I'll. I can give it to, you know, my. My bot. [00:43:11] Speaker A: My. [00:43:11] Speaker B: You know, my. He's just the writer. He doesn't, you know, have any power necessarily, but maybe he can get to the producer, John Peters. And it's like, okay, so the next day or two days later, I drive into abc. I hadn't really been there much before, driving on a lot. She got me a pass. And I walk into the Alias offices and I find her and I give her my headshot and okay, thanks. And then I was like, oh, that was crazy. And then. And I leave. I said, well, well, who knows what that is? I have a memory that Don actually came to Lucky Strike, but now I don't know if that's real. I have a dream that John came with him and something. An assistant. [00:43:59] Speaker A: John Peters. [00:44:00] Speaker B: Peters, the producer of the movie. At some point. Yeah, yeah, yeah. At some point. I don't know when. I don't know if that's. I remember. Anyway, so that was October. I don't think anything happened in there. Then January turns comes around pilot season. Busy, busy, busy again. Audition for the show for CW called the Mountain. On it, I see that Mick G. Is a producer. Mickey's directing Superman Returns or a flyby at the time. And I go, oh, Huh. I bet if I. Maybe if I get a call back, you'll see me in the callback. And you'd be like, you should be Superman. So I worked on really hard on the audition was for a character with edgy guy, like a cocky, like guy. I don't do that well. Especially then. There's no edge. Not, you know, didn't know how to do that. I had a fine audition, though, and they brought me. They brought me back for callback. [00:45:06] Speaker A: He's gonna. [00:45:07] Speaker B: Might be there. He might be there. He wasn't there. But who. But so close so far. But. But his producing partner, Stephanie Savage was there. So I didn't know who Stephanie was. But we're talking. And then, you know, Cassidy Victor stepped out of the room for a little bit, and we're talking and she's getting a coffee and she's from. She went to University of Iowa. And she was also an ice skater or something. We talked about ice skating. I like work bonding about University of Iowa. And I'm just kind of like gently, like charming. But I'm not saying anything about Superman, but I'm just showing all these qualities, I guess I think in my. You know who else I was 23, 4. I don't know, out of my Mind. And then I left. And my manager calls me like a week later, and he's like, I had some good news and bad news. I was like, what do you want first? I was like, I guess the bad news. He's like, well, you might want to pull over. I was like, okay, well, the bad news is that you didn't get the job. And I was bummed because they thought maybe they could write a different part for me because I just wouldn't fit the mold of character I needed. But it didn't work out, and I needed. But the good news is they want, you know, MCG wants to meet with you. They're setting up a meeting for you to make meet with McG. So I literally created my own meeting. I mean, I, you know, I, I, I did. I, I would, I have seen him otherwise, I don't know. Through the cast, natural casting process, possibly, but with different, very different energy. I would have been coming in. So then I had a meeting with him about 30 minutes and talked. Nothing about Superman. I left. I met John there. I think he was in the office. I might have met you too, Gil, but I didn't know your name. And I knew John because the assistant had talked about John. And. And then I later came back and read with the casting directors and then read a callback of Rick G. And then Screen Test. And that's where I met Gil, at the screen test. And then I didn't get the job, and nobody got the job. And then I was destroyed. My life went. No, I mean, I was like, oh, I was this close to the sun, and I burned up before I got there. And. And then August, Friday the 13th of August to 2004 rolled around and everything changed. [00:47:45] Speaker A: Brian Singer, he had insisted on an unknown actor in the tradition of the way they cast Christopher Reeve. You were, he said that you were the embodiment of our collective memory of Superman. And he especially liked your humble Midwestern roots. So, yeah, that, all that stuff. Absolutely. Interestingly, you, where you grew up was about a hundred miles away from the hometown of the original TV Superman. [00:48:21] Speaker B: Yes. [00:48:22] Speaker A: Forget to mention that. That, that's awesome. [00:48:24] Speaker B: Yeah. We didn't meet. I mentioned George. George, yeah. [00:48:26] Speaker A: George Reeve grew up in Wilcox. [00:48:29] Speaker B: Wilcox Wilcott. [00:48:32] Speaker A: There's all kinds of strange Superman stuff around you. It's really, it's really freaky. Finally, you get the gig. [00:48:44] Speaker B: Yes. And I was in Gil's office when I finally got the official word. [00:48:47] Speaker A: Yeah, you know, you're going to be doing this in Australia. Okay. So you, you shot this in Australia for. Was it nine months? [00:48:58] Speaker B: I think so, yeah. That's what I say. [00:49:00] Speaker C: Very long time now. [00:49:03] Speaker A: When Gil and I shot the last season of Crypt, we moved to London for six months. And, you know, that was great in ways. It was frustrating and maddening in other ways, adjusting to the culture. Well, we're both married to Brits, so it was a little bit easier, but there's still to go and move someplace far, far away for a length of time. Yes, there's. There's your workday, but there's also. Okay, now it's quitting time. Now what are you gonna do? What. What was the experience like working in Australia? Because you had. You had. You traveled outside the country before that. [00:49:44] Speaker B: That was my first. Wait, first international travel? Was that my first international. I think that was my first international travel. I lived in New York. I was on a soap opera and lived in New York, so I. [00:49:58] Speaker A: That's kind of international in a way. [00:50:00] Speaker B: I mean, it's. You know, thankfully, I went to New York before I went to la, actually, you know, ever. But. But I know. Yeah, I think. Yeah, that was my first international. I think I had to get my passport. [00:50:12] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. So right off the bat, this is. This is, man, where. It's a brave new world. It is stranger and it's amazing. [00:50:21] Speaker B: It was amazing. I loved it. It was just. I'm so happy that we were in Australia because it would have been a different story for me if we were. [00:50:28] Speaker A: In Los Angeles, in Sydney. Isn't that where you shot most of it? [00:50:32] Speaker B: Yes. [00:50:33] Speaker A: Okay. I never been there. What's Sydney like? [00:50:39] Speaker B: The sun is different, you know? [00:50:42] Speaker A: How so? [00:50:43] Speaker B: I definitely sense differences in the sun and the sky and angle of light and light quality. [00:50:51] Speaker C: Totally. Right. I mean, one of the reasons why we decided to go to Australia way back. [00:50:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:50:57] Speaker C: Because of that. Because of the light. It's a very different light down there. It seems like it's more intense. It seems more pure, and it seems more clear. [00:51:07] Speaker B: The image is, like, bigger. It's expansive. You know, we were on. We were in Sydney on the coast, and maybe also. Because there's not a lot of. I mean, there's a downtown area, but it's a. You know, it's a smaller footprint of height of buildings, and so there's more sky there in a lot of places, I guess, and just. It's just more. And just more alive. And it's alive in a different way. I don't know. Listen, I also have fond memories, you know, when you think about places, you know, that you go back to. We had such a great time. And you know, I don't know if going back it'd be exactly the same experience. Also I was in. I mean, it was peak time in my life. You know, so much energy around that experience that I was very. It was incredibly stressful, but I was also very alive. That doesn't mean as I was very present, but I was very alive in that, in that time in like a different way. I absolutely loved, loved it. And, and the people were great. The food was amazing and definitely ate too much of that. [00:52:18] Speaker A: But what, what particular food surprised you? [00:52:22] Speaker B: This whole funny, silly thing about coffee. I almost had like a. I almost have most. I was like. Like getting a coffee was almost my kryptonite. The first couple weeks in Australia, literally I brought me to. Almost brought me to my knees because I felt like such a. Such a stupid, like American now looking back, but this was, you know, 2004 and we went over there and I hadn't drink. I was 20. I was 24. I'd started to drink coffee, but I wasn't an avid coffee drink. I just get a coffee, you know, and so I go in and say, can I have a coffee, please? And I show white. What, What. I just want a coffee. Okay, but what. It's like, no, just coffee. But what kind of but, but do you want. But do you want like a purple coffee or do you want like a cube coffee? And I'm like, I just want coffee. But they're saying like what cheese coffee or like Empire State Building coffee? Like just coffee, drip coffee. And. And I don't know how many things I went into just being frustrated because in that mode and that time I was like frustrated and figure out. I didn't know how to figure out the answers. I didn't know how to like calm myself and go, wait, there's got to be a solution. I was like, why is the world crazy? Why is. Why. Why am I the right one in there? The world is crazy. And now I realized, oh, maybe I could just like ask somebody calmly, like, oh, it's so interesting. I keep asking for this thing. It's like this thing. Finally I did that to a friend or enough people. I don't know who it was because like, I was there with my cousin Kevin and he didn't drink a lot of coffee either. So she was. He was no help. He drank tea. And so anyway, finally I figured out it's an Americano. And I was like, oh, there's a language, there's a word. For it's an Americano. And then I was no longer defeated by coffee in Australia. [00:54:16] Speaker C: Right. Though it's. It's a whole other world in terms of coffee down there. They've got the best coffee in the world, I think. But it's. You have to know what you're asking. What is it? [00:54:26] Speaker A: What. What is a short. Short or what? What are they doing to it? [00:54:30] Speaker B: Cappuccino latte. It's like, how much foam? It's like long white. How much white? Short white. Short white. Milk. That's the milk. And like, you know, just a flat. [00:54:38] Speaker C: White or a long black. [00:54:40] Speaker B: Oh, there you go. [00:54:41] Speaker A: I'm with you, Brandon. Just give me a goddamn coffee, please. Got all the frou frou. [00:54:46] Speaker C: I had a similar problem with coffee, the coffee culture. When I first went down there to look at locations for a movie. Before I made Superman, I made a movie called Ghost Ship. And I went down there and they said to me, you know, if you want just a black coffee, ask for a long black. So I'm alone, all the people that I was working with, and I was flying back to the States the next day. And so I had dinner myself. I go into this restaurant and he said, you know, after dinner, you want something to drink? And I said, yeah, figuring I would be really smart and sharp and let him know I knew the culture. I said, I would like a tall black. [00:55:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:55:23] Speaker C: The widow came over to me and he said, I bet you would, but this isn't the case. For that I can get. And I realized, whoops, no, I wasn't asking for a coffee. [00:55:35] Speaker A: Yikes. Production was production, no problems. [00:55:41] Speaker B: It was flawless, Gil. Wasn't it? It was like the most cleanly run, no stress in the whole production and story. There's really not that we shouldn't. I mean, with the interviews over, I. [00:55:54] Speaker A: Think there you go. It was a one of a kind movie. [00:55:59] Speaker B: Rub it up. [00:56:02] Speaker A: What was the worst problem you faced making it while you were making it, Gil? [00:56:09] Speaker C: Let's see. I don't think the podcast is long enough for me to go into it there. We had a lot of problems. A lot of problems. [00:56:20] Speaker A: It's a great looking movie. [00:56:23] Speaker C: Yeah, it was shot really well. Everything about the movie itself, I think, came out well and came out good. I'm very proud of that movie. I think everything about it I really like a lot. It was just a very difficult and very challenging experience to make the picture. I mean, you know, consider. We had five different units shooting at any given time, and, you know, so I. I was constantly Trying to figure out, okay, when. When do we get Brandon onto this set? Or when do we get Brandon onto that set? And always talking to the ads about, you know, the most efficient way of using not only his time, but our time and our money. So it was. It was. It was a big production. It was a huge production. [00:57:10] Speaker A: What was the most challenging scene to create? Because the. The opening on the airplane is. That's a. That's a great sequence. [00:57:22] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, that took a long, long time. We. We spent probably twice kind of. Yeah. Months in previs. We. We previz the hell out of it. You know, we built in Tamworth, which is an hour and a half flight away from Sydney. We built the farm and we grew the corn and we decided to shoot the corn when the corn was the right height. You know, I mean, it was just very, very challenging. We built the. The Daily Planet on a stage and we overlit it, which caused terrible problems because of heat, which gave us more problems because I had to get more air conditioning, which caused more problems because we didn't have the electrical capability for the additional air conditioning. [00:58:07] Speaker B: So you couldn't just turn down the lights? [00:58:10] Speaker C: No. [00:58:11] Speaker B: How do you. What a weird one. [00:58:12] Speaker A: No, they could only be set to 11. [00:58:15] Speaker C: So we had, you know, we had, I mean, problem after problem after problem which you don't even think about or realize until you start talking about it and going, oh, wait a second. That was a problem. This was. You know, this was an issue. This was. So there were a lot of. A lot of problems with it. [00:58:32] Speaker B: Had to keep pulling me out of the bars, like. And keep all my bar fights under wraps. [00:58:37] Speaker A: And, you know, having cast a lot of actors, I can tell you I've never cast an actor to act. You just want actors to be who they are as honestly as they possibly can. And really and truly, that you got cast in Superman as Superman was perfect casting. You know, really, you were it. Even in the way that you grew up. There was a lot of that. And as I think we've discovered, you know, there's a lot of that internal conflict, you know, that Clark and Superman have a conflict. And, you know, you're an incredibly. You're a terrific storyteller, and yet you insist you aren't. What the fuck are you talking about? [00:59:33] Speaker B: Well, I have my moments. Thank you. When I. You know, you have to be invested in the story sometimes. If you're not, then it falls apart. I haven't always been able to thank you. [00:59:46] Speaker A: When. When you got to the end of. Of this whole process of Superman Returns. And, you know, I'll small confession, I didn't see the movie until very, very recently, just before we did this. This interview, because. Oh, wow. Because at the time. [01:00:01] Speaker B: No, it's amazing. That's great. I love it. [01:00:03] Speaker A: Well, at the time it came out, I was not to do that. I was watching certain movies. [01:00:07] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [01:00:10] Speaker A: But. But now that I've seen it, I. Wow. I'm so impressed with everybody's work. It's a little too long, but I think everybody knows I'm not. I'm not giving away any family secrets, I don't think, but it's. It really, you know, the mission was to take it back to Dick and Christopher, and you did. It's. It's remarkably. How. How faithful it was to. To the stated purpose. [01:00:40] Speaker B: Yeah, well. Well, thanks. And that's a supreme credit to Gil for champion parenting this, you know, and being the parent for thousands of people, really keeping everybody in line. You know, you're. You're phenomenal, Gil, at what you do. And. And it's not just logic and logistics and this. And I know how to do this. It's the way you are with people and means so much in this business, in life, and I just want to honor you in that way. You certainly made the difference for me. Would have been a very, very big difference. I mean, if somebody didn't have you in my corner helping to protect me and make sure that I was. I was. I was as safe as I could be from. From. From just the pressure of this thing, which I didn't. I was so naive. I just. I had. I really had no concept of. I guess, to the benefit of me, I guess, in a way, so that my fear didn't engage. But you. [01:01:51] Speaker A: You had become instantly famous. [01:01:54] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Ish. Yeah, I guess. [01:01:58] Speaker A: Well, yeah. I mean, you went from. All right, nobody knowing your name. [01:02:02] Speaker C: Yes. [01:02:02] Speaker B: I mean, yes, a lot. [01:02:04] Speaker A: Everybody knowing your name. And that's. Most people do not have that experience ever. And that's. That in and of itself, it's. It's indescribable. People who have gone through it, nothing can prepare you for it. Nothing. And everyone's just slightly, you know. [01:02:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:02:27] Speaker A: And so. Yeah, nothing can prepare you for the whole world looking at you so differently. [01:02:33] Speaker B: I mean, I don't know. You know, they can't. I mean, it can't. But I never really thought about it before, but I. I feel like once I made the decision to go to Los Angeles and pursue this, that I guess kind of like success was inevitable and I. And I. And that was not even like, that's not even like egotistical because it wasn't. I thought I was so good. It was, it just wasn't a question. It was just. This is the. I guess maybe that people talk about path or flow. I. It was, it was, I was. It was a thing. It was, it was. Yes, it was just, it was like. It was just. Yes. And I didn't have the understanding or couldn't tell you why or even if didn't make sense. It was just. Yes, it was. It was the thing to do. It made the most logical sense and felt right. [01:03:42] Speaker A: Understood. Absolutely understood. [01:03:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:03:46] Speaker A: All right. So now the movie gets released and just in the moments pre release, you, you have a three picture deal. This is the first. And you are assuming, Brandon, that your, your future, your, your future, you are on a flight path to God knows where. [01:04:06] Speaker B: This is great. This is you. Yes, please. This is, this is my world. Yes, continue. [01:04:09] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I mean, and, and, and, and suddenly it just. [01:04:14] Speaker B: I got it all. It's like what's amazing. [01:04:16] Speaker A: Yeah. And, and suddenly something changes, something that you have no control over. It's out of your hands. You've done everything you possibly can. People in suits are making decisions that are changing your destiny. Motherfuckers. Even though the movie did great, it made. Hey, it made money. What more. [01:04:43] Speaker B: It was well reviewed and it was well reviewed. [01:04:45] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it. Yeah. Empire ranked the movie 496 on is the 500 greatest movies of all time. Yeah, it's. [01:04:55] Speaker B: I think our rotten. Our Rotten Tomatoes is better than a lot of the other related stuff too. [01:05:02] Speaker C: So I think we were punished for success and because of the emotionality that we gave that character, I think that's what, you know, they sort of resented. Some people resented that emotionality. [01:05:17] Speaker B: You mean the movie going audience? [01:05:20] Speaker C: No, I think the people. Yeah, the powers that be. [01:05:24] Speaker B: I think ultimately that's interesting. Yeah, I have a thought too. [01:05:28] Speaker A: Would, Would you say that this was a case of Superman? The emotional approach to the character being a little bit ahead of the curve? Because really that's where all. Yeah, a lot of superheroes. Ultimately Peter Parker is an emotional wreck. [01:05:41] Speaker B: That's the point, I don't think. Yeah, I mean we brought in more humanity. You know, that was what was so beautiful about Chris's performance is the humanity in his Clark and in his Superman. Like he was, he was all of those characters. [01:05:59] Speaker A: I would use the word vulnerable and I'd use the word to describe how you played him, which is, you Know, it's totally strange, the strange human connection to a superhero. [01:06:09] Speaker B: Yeah, he's still, he's, he's still human. He's still, he's like, he's like. I mean I see it as if I had this, if I, my chemical, I could reverse the magnetic field of my body and use magnetism to float because you know, it's gravity is. If you can reverse the magazine that's they're making flying cars and stuff. You know, I'm, we're electronic. I'm, we'll say I did then like, then you have a lot of power. Right. So what does a person like that do with that power? You can be a complete and rule the world or are you going to be a benevolent person who wants to see the kindness and beauty in humanity and share that message? And that's what I've wanted to do all my life. Just that the idea of what, how, how that would be has grown and gets bigger and bigger and bigger all the time. Suddenly on a, on a stage where I have that opportunity. [01:07:07] Speaker A: Yes. And suddenly the vehicle. [01:07:12] Speaker B: You're doubling down. [01:07:13] Speaker A: Yeah. It's like you had a custom made vehicle and yet like you were made for each other. It was quite. And then like I said, guys in suits suddenly made a decision that it was. They made money, but not enough money. [01:07:27] Speaker B: Sometimes they're not ready. [01:07:30] Speaker C: You know what made it special and what made Brandon's performance so special for me was, you know, the passion. I mean we all had passion about making this movie from Brian me to even John Peters to a degree. But the passion that Brandon brought to the character to me made the biggest difference. And that's why in my mind it was the best Superman movie that I'd ever seen and have seen since. [01:08:02] Speaker A: And you really believed a man could fly in this one? [01:08:06] Speaker C: Well, he could, he can, yeah. [01:08:08] Speaker A: Yeah. In many, many way. In so many ways. So suddenly you veer. Well, Superman gets derailed. And that had to be just, he. [01:08:25] Speaker B: Has, he has his junkyard. [01:08:30] Speaker A: I, I, I, I, I can only imagine the, the, the wow. It's beyond un. What was that? I don't want to take you back to that moment because it had to be horrible. But, but you know that there's a mountain now. You have to get past the fact that this thing that should have been wasn't. [01:08:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:08:59] Speaker A: How, how, how did you put yourself back together again? [01:09:11] Speaker B: I, I wanna, I mean it was friends and family were very important, helpful Gil and Je being there and you know, awkward position for him to be in because technically he's. He's producer and he's my boss. But I'm also living in his guest house and Genie's guest house and not even paying a full rent because I have been not working really because the movie didn't happen and other things aren't quite happening and it's a very stressful and terrible time. So I'm so grateful for you guys, for all of that. Courtney and I both and my parents incredibly supportive and positive and that things will come around and, and, and really, you know, my wife Courtney, incredibly important in, in the whole process really. But in supporting and helping and protecting and looking out for me for things that I didn't know and dangers I didn't see because I was this little farm boy from Iowa. So that was incredibly important. [01:10:42] Speaker A: You. You got back. [01:10:43] Speaker C: Courtney was a great, great support my perspective. She was and is and has been always and, and you know what we all do. We all, you know, trip and fall along the way and we pick ourselves up and you know, we move on to the next and we. Or we leave. I mean a lot of people have left and fortitude and you know, perseverance like fellow people, you know, want to be in the film business to continue on. [01:11:12] Speaker A: What Gil and I have said on this podcast quite a few times, it's the thing that most outsiders don't appreciate about this business. It's. It's a getting onto the mountain. But that ain't the real the. Is staying on the mountain. Yeah. That's the thing that will you up because you gotta. Yeah, it's. What have you done for me lately? [01:11:37] Speaker B: I. Yeah, I. I mean I think that's. That is. There's truth to that. I think I was. I just, I didn't know it. I didn't know anything and I really didn't. I had become an instant celebrity or notoriety famous person at that time. I guess I am. I was able to I think play the. What was required of me the roles in Superman Returns effectively and there are scenes I would like to do differently and take back and burn but otherwise I love about that movie and what I was able to do as a 25 year old in that movie. But I, I had died so much. I had missed so much. I had missed so many acting steps and also like life steps to get to where I was. So I, so I was bewildered when I got there and the. The road was. The path was gone. It was. The path was no longer clear and I had to start to make my own path again because I got. I Kind of. I explained to you what happened. I. The story, that path was kind of like, oh, this, oh, that. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. It's, oh, door, door, door, door, door. The question was, am I afraid to go through the door or not? Like, it was like, no, I mean, I mean. But then you get to the top, right? And I'm like, oh, I just peek at the thing, right? And you go through the door. And then, you know, like, there was good. There's great, fantastic, amazing, but there's also, like, the other side of it, and I hadn't experienced it to that depth. And I think that was really challenging for me because I. Because then it was like, where are the doors? [01:13:19] Speaker A: Yeah, the other side of the door is where you begin to learn shit. [01:13:24] Speaker B: Yeah. About you. [01:13:26] Speaker A: About life. [01:13:27] Speaker B: Yeah. A path. You have to begin to choose your own adventure. And before I wasn't really. I was. I was unconsciously choosing my own adventure. And now I am shifting into choosing my own adventure. [01:13:38] Speaker A: A. You know, it's. It's. It's hard to have to have that to bounce. But you did and, you know, you began to work. You did an episode of Fear itself, working with our friend Mick Garris. [01:13:57] Speaker B: Well, I was really with Mary Heron, the director, but yes, I was on. [01:14:04] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I mean, but. But it was still. It was a Mick. It was a Mick enterprise and, you know, which is very. [01:14:10] Speaker B: Oh, go ahead, go ahead. [01:14:11] Speaker A: No, I was going to say, you know, it's. You know, it's always nice to see the family supporting the family. [01:14:17] Speaker B: Sure. It's funny and it's very funny. That's great. And it's also another parallel because of Chris doing Tales from the Crypt, which I, you know, because that's. It's a. I mean, similar kind of genre type thing. And that's probably the worst performance I've ever given in my life, by the way. [01:14:37] Speaker A: And Fear itself, I haven't seen. [01:14:43] Speaker B: It's just bad. I mean, there's some. Maybe some like. But a lot of it's just bad. That was a rough one. [01:14:49] Speaker A: But. But the good news was, you know, there. There was work. There was suddenly you look, you. You. You had to figure out how to be an actor again, to a degree, because if you had been Superman, you wouldn't have had to have. All right, I don't mean you wouldn't have had to have acted, but all your acting choices would have been made for you In. In. In a certain degree, it would have been whatever the character was going to do. That's you would have navigated within the range. You would not have been playing characters outside of Superman. You would have been playing. [01:15:16] Speaker B: Oh, right, yeah, yeah. I would have just continued on that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Who knows? I just know that indeed I wasn't. Yeah. [01:15:23] Speaker A: Now you had to go and really take really who you are and put that into a range of other characters with different names. [01:15:32] Speaker B: Yes. [01:15:37] Speaker A: And yet, strangely, then, you know, there was more superheroes came your way. And there's the Flash. [01:15:50] Speaker B: Yeah, well, before. I mean. Yeah. I mean, comic books came. We did Dylan Dog. [01:15:54] Speaker A: Yeah, Dylan Dog. [01:15:55] Speaker B: And which. Which happened simultaneous. Almost simultaneous to Scott Pilgrim versus the world, which I played, where I played a villain. So. [01:16:02] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. So the opportunity suddenly were coming for you to do really, some. Some really interesting stuff. And you know that. That wouldn't have been there, probably, if you had done two more movies of Superman. You would have been typecast. Forget about it. Oh, man. [01:16:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:16:17] Speaker A: I don't know. [01:16:18] Speaker B: Possibly. But I. But I was okay with that. Like, I, Like, I had already. Like, that was already. That's like. Okay, so. And. Yes. And let's do this, like, amazing thing. I'm not going to worry about that because that might not happen also, like, maybe I won't. [01:16:35] Speaker C: That was one of the problems Chris had. I mean, he. You know, when we got to work with him, we talked a little bit about this, and he really felt that Superman was great for his career in one level and terrible for his career in another because he didn't get to play different parts that he really wanted to play. So it, you know, it's really a mixed blessing, but it's. You know, it goes back to the fortitude and the perseverance of what do I want to do? [01:17:02] Speaker B: Yeah, well, listen, thankfully I like this character, and these are the kind of characters I want to play anyway. So for me, it was like, I would typecast as like, a dorky dude, nerdy guy. I was like, that's my jam. That's what I. That's where I find fun to be the awkward. Like, just like fish out of water. That's. That was my first role ever in acting. The. You know, my. The play is Aesop. You know, in high school, my first was a fumbling idiot, but lovable. And that's what I. That's my favorite thing to play Ray Palmer. Ray and Clark are not idiots. [01:17:39] Speaker A: No, no, no, no, no, no, no. But. [01:17:41] Speaker B: But anybody at home keeping track of. [01:17:44] Speaker A: But Ray, you know, you. Gosh, Ray Palmer came along. That's a cool part. [01:17:52] Speaker B: Yeah. Turned into a fantastic thing. [01:17:55] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, really, you created other opportunities for yourself based on your body of work. Really. And like I said, if you had perversely. Perversely, if you had continued just to do the Superman thing, other opportunities would have been denied you, most likely. Because this town is so up in. In the way that. That it pigeonholes all of us. [01:18:20] Speaker B: Well, I think the trajectory. I. I think if we look. I guess just in this conversation, I'm seeing if we look holistically at the team behind that movie, projecting forward several years. And I think that it may be the best thing for the. The legacy of Superman that. That it didn't continue down that path with that team. [01:18:56] Speaker C: Totally. Totally true. [01:18:58] Speaker B: And I think I'm just kind of. I'm just kind of realizing that in this conversation. [01:19:02] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:19:03] Speaker B: And if that's. And if that's. And if I had to be the one, whatever. I could make it whatever I wanted to my head. But. But that's an honorable. That's an honorable takeaway and an understanding of the situation, because I can. I. I have been able to continue. It's taken some time for me to wrap my head around it, but I have been able to continue in a more positive, active role. My. My sharing of the message of Superman. [01:19:32] Speaker A: When you got to put the uniform, the Superman wardrobe back on, you've described it in. You talked about the earlier interviews you did with Michael Rosenbaum. You described the process of putting. Putting the wardrobe back on and what that was like. And it had to be quite gratifying. [01:19:59] Speaker B: It was. It was. Huh. It was surreal, but not as surreal as the first time. I was actually more present. Thank. Thankfully, it's such a beautiful. [01:20:14] Speaker A: The second time. The second time. [01:20:15] Speaker B: The second time. The second time father. I've been a father. [01:20:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:20:21] Speaker B: I. 15 years later, a lot of wisdom. I think that's wisdom and growth. And so I really felt like I could bring something different and adept to Superman, specifically, that I was not able to tap into or understand or even be aware of at the time. And so I was very eager to be able to do that. And so this was an opportunity to really. To. To. To really do that and to. And then also the feeling of being honored and respected. To be back in that way was just tremendous. And that closed. It closed the door on that for me. Like, I don't. I used to have lingering like, oh, what if? What if? And. And I don't anymore. I still have like, what if? But it's not. It's like, oh, maybe but it's not. I don't have. I don't have. I, like, I'm. It's such a gift. I'm so grateful. It's one of the. [01:21:19] Speaker A: You know, the whole thing. As you said at the start, you. You kind of headed out with. With this thing in your head that you were going to get from point A to point B. And even when. When it was derailed, you still ended up back there. And, and coming back to. I would imagine, coming back to such a. Such a particular role, having been away for it for an important period of time where a lot of development were really just your evolution as a human being here on the planet. I mean, I can only imagine. Yeah. The depth when you. When you went back to the character and God suddenly use. I have to imagine you saw it with greater depth. [01:22:05] Speaker B: Oh, I. Yes. I mean, I have continued to. He's ever present the ideas, the theme, the. The energy of. Of Superman has lived with me always, but it just became like, oh, this is also Superman energy. When I, When I, when this. This actual role came around, it's like, oh, this is the same thing. This is just. This is just the. This. This face. It's this. Telling the story this way. I'm just telling the story this way. This is. This is the puppet I'm using. This is the character. This is the message. This is the. And. And so going into conventions and at first was weird for me because people are paying money to say hi to me and take my picture and my photo and do I feel weird about that? And yes, I do. But also, like, they would never meet me if I wasn't. If I wasn't. I would, like. I wouldn't leave my family to go do that if I wasn't getting paid. Not that I don't love people, but I just. I would be with my family. It's an incentive. And. And is that wrong? And I was like, the point is, I'm here. And if I'm here and I just go to. I'm here. If I'm here with the people, I'll connect with you as much as I can in this moment. So I've been working on being able to connect with people in small instances to say, I see you, I appreciate you. You have this wonderful thing in memory of Superman and the energy that you. That. That I helped evoke or bring about or stay resonant in your life. And that's awesome and wonderful to meet you. And, and, and so my. The way I interact with people is shifting currently, even you know, and it's really exciting and fun. So that's just other Superman. And then, and then talking and thinking about it. [01:23:48] Speaker A: It sounds like you have gained, over the course of time, you have gained grace for, for want of a better word, that you have become. [01:23:55] Speaker B: I'm learning grace. [01:23:56] Speaker A: Yes, yes. Yeah, yeah. A wonderful, a wonderful quality to acquire as life goes on. [01:24:01] Speaker B: So it's a great space to be in. It's when, when I'm able to, to tap into it and remember that it's available all the time. That's great. That's. Thank you for. That's a great definition or an explanation. [01:24:17] Speaker A: What are you working on right now? [01:24:19] Speaker B: We started in June and we were seven months and six months into our, into shooting and stopped by the strike. Thankfully, we were independent and signed the waiver agreement slash agreement right away. And we were down for two or three days and then got back and we have to finish the film. Principal photography of a movie that I'm not, I don't think I'm supposed to talk about it really yet because it's going to be a surprise thing, but it's really fun and it's a genre, it's a, it's a horror comedy, action fun, but kind of family. Ish. It's PG13, so you will be allowed to see. It's going to be scary, but it's PG13. [01:25:09] Speaker A: But you will be allowed to see it now. [01:25:11] Speaker B: I mean. Yes, it will now. Yeah. [01:25:13] Speaker A: Oh, good. [01:25:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:25:15] Speaker A: You wouldn't have to hide under the covers, right? [01:25:20] Speaker B: Not too much. But it was, it was, it was so fun and amazing and another fantastic. [01:25:26] Speaker A: When is it supposed to be out? [01:25:28] Speaker B: We don't know. It's, it's, we're still, we're still. Yeah, lots, lots to, lots to do. But it's the first thing I've been excited about this excited about in a very long time. [01:25:37] Speaker A: Well, that's great to hear. [01:25:38] Speaker B: Yeah, thank you. [01:25:39] Speaker A: That's great to hear. You know, I, I came into this not knowing that much about you, but I, I, I've learned a lot about you in a very short amount of time. And like I said, I, I, I, I, I feel like our experience in this business is so similar. Good God, we could weep on each other's shoulders. [01:25:59] Speaker B: Yeah, I've just been talking the whole time. [01:26:01] Speaker A: But that was, that was the invitation, wasn't it? You know, hey, if this is our couch, you, you lie down. Not, not us. You know, I, my biggest takeaway is that I, I, Brandon, you are super man. That's that's it. That's. That's my takeaway. [01:26:20] Speaker C: And he always has been. [01:26:21] Speaker A: And I thank you. We both thank you so much for opening your heart and telling a very hard story. It's. It really is, man. It's hard to tell a story about being disappointed. [01:26:40] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, thank you. I appreciate that. It's been a journey. The last bit of time to get in touch with my vulnerability and authenticity and to be this truthful representation of who I am inside, to have that represented outside. And it takes a lot of effort and energy and focus and also relaxation. Composed relaxation. People have better explanations for it, but focused awareness. Focused attention. No, that's focused awareness. Focus, distraction. I don't know. Now I'm getting distracted by my brain, but no worries, sorry. I'm gonna bring, bring that back to a, to a cohesive thought. [01:27:30] Speaker A: Take, Take your moment, find your light. [01:27:32] Speaker B: Yeah, I actually just went off. [01:27:38] Speaker A: No worries now. [01:27:39] Speaker B: I said too many words and I did a. What were we talking about? [01:27:44] Speaker A: Oh my God. You just described my brain. Oh my God. I'm hypomanic. So that happens a lot. And just a great idea and suddenly I'm at the end of a pier with nowhere else to go. [01:27:56] Speaker B: If I do too much self analyzation about why I'm saying the thing I'm doing, then I get lost and that rabbit hole and I forgot like. Wait, nobody needs to hear that. Brandon. Go back to the. The fish. This is catching a. Reeling at a fish in the story. And what is the fish? This is why I smoke this great thing that I. She says, she says. And now I imagine it when I'm telling a story. What's the fish? Go back to the fish. Where's. What are you pulling in? [01:28:18] Speaker C: I don't. [01:28:19] Speaker B: So I don't even remember what I was saying. What were you talking about? [01:28:21] Speaker A: This is why I smoke copious amounts of marijuana. [01:28:27] Speaker C: We were just thanking you for. [01:28:28] Speaker A: Yeah, we were. We were just thanking you for, for really for, for. For being. Incredible vulnerability. [01:28:33] Speaker B: We're talking about vulnerability. I was so open. I was so open. I lost my train of thought. Vulnerability is important in the world and I, you know, I'm grateful to like you mentioned Michael a couple times. Michael's show, getting people to talk, that was one of the first opportunities I had to kind of speak, have a safe space to talk about the journey I was going through in therapy and, and how important it is and mental health and all these things. I mean, gosh, guys, let's just like, you know, we gotta love each other and we gotta. We gotta support each other and we gotta know that nobody's perfect and we're all making mistakes and we just wanna. I mean, like, I just want to make movies and have fun and celebrate and we don't have to do all this. We don't have to do. [01:29:15] Speaker A: We don't. [01:29:15] Speaker B: Truth. We don't have to do all this other stuff that we're doing. We don't have to. There's a system that was set up long before we got here as this business. And. And then, like, we're trying to. Excuse me. We're trying to fix other people's mistakes and then tie the knots. And like, who said. Who's to blame? Who's blame? Who's blamed? You got the blame. This is your blame. But you did this and you did it. Okay? You can't. It's. You can't unravel. You can't go back and start. You can't go back to the beginning and do it again. [01:29:41] Speaker A: No, just. [01:29:42] Speaker B: So now. So what now? What do you want? To live and to be happy. What do you want? To live and be happy. Okay, how do we do that? [01:29:51] Speaker A: This is our message. [01:29:52] Speaker B: So anyway, that's. That's the web world. How do you get. That's world peace right there. [01:29:58] Speaker A: It's. It seems so simple. How. How can we not solve this? It's. It's a whole other podcast, I think. Thank you, everyone. [01:30:07] Speaker B: I'm being facetious, everyone. In case anybody thinks I'm. I'm slight. I'm like 1%, but I mean, but it. Mostly it's not that easy. It is, but it isn't. I don't. I don't. I don't water down the terrors and the traumas that are happening all across the world. Sorry for everyone suffering and I love all of you. Take care of wherever you are. [01:30:30] Speaker A: Indeed. Be safe, everyone. Above all, be safe. And thank you for listening. The how not to Make a Movie podcast is executive produced by me, Alan Katz, by Gil Adler, and by Jason Stein. Our artwork was done by the amazing Jody Webster and Jason. Jody, along with Mando, are all the hosts of the fun and informative Dads from the Crypt podcast. Follow them for what my old pal the Crypt Keeper would have called terrific crip content.