S3E51: Rules In A Knife Fight

[00:00:00] Speaker A: This podcast is a collaboration between Costard and Touchstone Productions and the Dads from the Crypt podcast. [00:00:09] Speaker B: No, no, not yet. Not until me and Harvey get the rules straightened out. Rules? In a knife fight? No rules. [00:00:18] Speaker A: Well, if there ain't gonna be any. [00:00:19] Speaker B: Rules, let's get the fight started. [00:00:20] Speaker A: Someone count one, two, three, go. [00:00:21] Speaker B: One, two, three, go. I was really rooting for you, Butch. Well, thank you, Flat nose. That's what sustained me in my time of trouble. [00:00:42] Speaker A: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the how not to Make a Movie podcast. I'm Alan Katz. This is an encore of an interview I recorded earlier this season with Sean Cassidy, the son of Lurch. Sean's a delightful person in his own right. He tells his story in the interview, and it's fascinating. What made meeting and sitting down with Sean such an additional buzz was, well, his dad and the fact that Sean entirely celebrates his dad and everything his dad did. Now, as I've said here lots of times before, I grew up a movie lover, and one of the greatest thrills of my life has been getting to work with some of the people whose movies I grew up loving. I love Clockwork Orange, for instance. Got to work with Malcolm McDowell and Aubrey Morris, who played Alex's counselor, Mr. Deltoid. I loved lots and lots of Kirk Douglas movies. Got to work with Kirk Douglas. Same goes for Bob Zemeckis. He made movies like Back to the Future and Forest Gump. Bob Z, of course, was my boss on Tales from the Crypt. I wrote two of Bob's episodes. Another of the movies I grew up adoring was Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kit. I never got to work with Paul Newman. Probably won't get to check Robert Redford off my list either. In fact, as far as I know, Butch is one of those movies where I never got to work with anyone involved. But not a small consolation, I got to meet Sean Cassidy and talk with Sean about what it was like growing up in his house and with Ted Cassidy as his dad in Butch Cassidy and Sundance Kid, a William Goldman script over brimming with poetry and ass kick and great dialogue, Ted Cassidy gets to speak one of the movie's most iconic, quotable, and often misquoted lines. Rules. In a knife fight, no rules. And then, of course, because there are no rules, Butch kicks. Harvey Logan, Sean's character, right in the nuts, ends the fight just like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Lurch and all Ted's other very fine work. Harvey Logan is what made me a Ted Cassidy fan for life. Here's Sean at What point in your life did you pick up your dad's mantle? [00:03:11] Speaker B: Oh, geez. Well, you know, it's a good question because in what way? I mean, I was always very tall. Dad was very tall. In some ways that was it. Although I never thought of myself as tall because dad was 6 9. I topped out at 6 7. I'm 66 now, so I never thought of myself as tall, but other people did. I suppose. I, you know, it was in Brentwood, in the Palisades, and every other person is an actor and Paul Revere Junior high school in Palisades High. I definitely was in drama and all of that and dipped my toe into some TV stuff. But you know what? I watched my dad, who was successful in his career, but you know how Hollywood is, even the successful ones. He, there were times he was sitting by the phone sweating, like, just hoping it would ring. And I remember watching that and thinking, I don't know, maybe something a little more predictable. I'm an attorney, that's my day job. And so I did that. But yeah, a little bit. I mean it's a lot of fun stuff. [00:04:24] Speaker A: You appreciated early on that. [00:04:27] Speaker B: Yes. [00:04:27] Speaker A: As hard as it is to get onto this mountain, that's not the hardest thing. The hardest thing is staying on the. [00:04:33] Speaker B: Mountain, staying, staying relevant. [00:04:35] Speaker A: That's, that's what can drive you crazy. [00:04:38] Speaker B: Absolutely. And what, you know, dad had the thing which was being tall. Right. In Hollywood that meant. But that also limited the roles you could get unless you were Clint Walker or some of these guys who somehow could rise above that. So he'd see a lot of the same guys at interviews and you know, that was it. He, he called a lot of the roles that he went to interview for to audition for, seize them roles. So, so he would be the leader of some gang or, you know, and he sees them. [00:05:13] Speaker A: You, how old were you when your dad died? [00:05:18] Speaker B: 21. [00:05:20] Speaker A: Okay, so. So you were old enough to not just observe these things, but only being 21, you know, the 21 year old male is not the cleverest creature on the planet. But, but still you knew me. Well, yes, I knew me, I knew me. That's all I need to know. But still you were, you absorbed enough to realize that this is a crazy way to spend your life. [00:05:47] Speaker B: I was six years old when the whole thing started, you know that I really didn't know anything different. So we were in Dallas. Dad was a dj, he was one of the first interviewers of witnesses to the JFK assassination. So that was kind of a big thing for him at WFAA in Dallas. And then he got the Lurch job. And that's a story. We should talk about how he got the job. Dad hit the ground running. He came out for the job. So he was part of Hollywood when he got here. And you know, all the people he met, the friends he made were all in the industry and they were nuts, they were cuckoo people. [00:06:30] Speaker A: Do you recall from, from, from your, at that point you said six year old perspective you went from. You had apparently a family house in Dallas that was very important, a family house, an important place. So you left this secure place to come to. Well, a place that was a lot more expensive to begin with. [00:06:50] Speaker B: Yeah, that's true, but I, you know, I wasn't really aware of that. We moved into an apartment in Santa Monica. [00:06:56] Speaker A: Right, you moved from a house because that's what your dad could afford, to an apartment because that's what your dad could afford. [00:07:04] Speaker B: And that was the base to look for about a year for a house. So he had to search for one. Ended up, he made a goodbye in Rustic Canyon. What a, what a neighborhood that was in Palisades back then. It was, I call it upper middle class. I mean, it wasn't the crazy rich that it is now and sort of an artist enclave. There's a lot of fun. So I was saying earlier that, you know, I was young enough so that the associates, dad. The friends dad made were crazy and I wasn't used to anything else. You know, these were creative people. Back in the 60s, being of a certain sexual preference was controversial, but I didn't think so I, I met all these people of all different kinds. They were all brilliant and funny and creative and so much fun to be around. So that was a lot of fun for me. [00:08:01] Speaker A: I would imagine that growing up as you did in LA in the 70s was in and of itself an amazing story all by itself. [00:08:12] Speaker B: So many reasons. Basketball fan and UCLA and the Lakers, that was a great time. Oh, the music, the beach. It was, it was, it was paradise. And dad being employed. That was fun. [00:08:27] Speaker A: My question was, at what point did you pick up your dad's mantle and suddenly take on this, the, this idea of the son of Lurch? [00:08:36] Speaker B: Right? Well, yeah. So several years ago I was reading about these conventions and, and just kind of thinking, well, gee, you know, Lurch is a real popular character. What about the son of. I mean, lucky for me, I look a lot like him. I'm tall. There's really, to be honest, no one else from the show who could do that. John Aston's still alive, but he's 93, I think, and he's not willing to do any of that. And most of the cast members are gone, and even the children don't look like I'm the only one. So already talking to MGM about how we can coordinate some promotion for this year's 60th anniversary, and so should be very excited. This is part of that. Alan, thank you very much. [00:09:25] Speaker A: It is. As someone who is also experiencing the benefits of a resurgence, my show, Tales from the Crypt, when God, for years and years, it was an anvil around my neck, it was like, well, what have you done lately of any particular value? [00:09:44] Speaker B: The more it ages, the more you have to answer that. [00:09:48] Speaker A: But then it suddenly hits a sweet spot, and it. I just started going to horror conventions, which is where we met at. At. At Horror Con la. [00:10:02] Speaker B: Right. [00:10:03] Speaker A: What was a revelation to me when I went to my first horror convention was, in fact, a lot of the cosplay. So many people dress up. What's curious is that they dress up as. As Freddy Krueger, as Leatherface, as Jason. No one ever dresses up as any of the victims. [00:10:26] Speaker B: As what? [00:10:27] Speaker A: As any of the victims. [00:10:28] Speaker B: Right, right. [00:10:29] Speaker A: They dress up as the monster. And what occurred to me is that the horror fans embrace horror not just because it's fun, but because, well, hey, the. In a horror movie, the monster is. He's having all the fun, and they're the empowered one. And that's what horror fans embrace about horror. It's the empowerment. [00:10:50] Speaker B: Yeah. And what. I think that also dovetails into that Alan, is so frequently. The monster is the underdog. [00:10:57] Speaker A: Yes. [00:10:58] Speaker B: Is the one I sympathize with. My first. My first favorite movie star was Godzilla. And from that first movie, I was pulling for him in every scene. And I think that that continues. Everybody pulls for Lurch. It's. [00:11:14] Speaker A: Is it really so bad to want to be the monster? [00:11:19] Speaker B: That's a good question. I suppose it depends on your. [00:11:22] Speaker A: On who the monster is. But not all monsters are monstrous. Some monsters actually are. They're not. Not all monsters are the villain. Some monsters are just different. [00:11:36] Speaker B: Well, you go back to the original Frankenstein. Yeah. And certainly Lurch was like that. Everybody loved him who knew him. [00:11:44] Speaker A: It is. And that is the particular nature of. Really. The monster is not necessarily monstrus. [00:11:51] Speaker B: Yes. Yes. [00:11:52] Speaker A: And one of the things. Why does a character like Lurch endure? But because despite, hey, I'm just a storyteller, as I look at him, I think, wow, he's. He's monstrous. And yet you feel his soul. [00:12:05] Speaker B: You do. You're right. He's a pensive and self reflective character, Lurch, and, and such a nice guy. One of the things I love about Lurch, and especially today with this culture that more and more focuses on and sympathizes with people who are different, and certainly 1964, 1965, Lurch was as different as you got, and. But he didn't feel less. He. He just told you what he thought. I mean, I think he's still kind of a poster child for that type of. Type of thing we think about today. [00:12:46] Speaker A: Lurch seemed comfortable inside his own skin. [00:12:50] Speaker B: Yes, he did. Yes, he did. Yeah. [00:12:52] Speaker A: And wow, what a. What a. What an accomplishment. [00:12:56] Speaker B: Now what's interesting though, Alan, now that you say that, it makes me think dad wasn't necessarily comfortable in his own skin, but Lurch was. And there's a big difference there. Dad, you know, was 6, 9. He grew up in Philippi, West Virginia, this little town, the 30s and 40s. He was. He was a monster just being himself. And he always felt that all the time. And I know when I was young, he would talk to me about it because he figured I would feel the same. And he would try to tell me I did not. My father was taller than me. I was in Los Angeles. I played basketball. I had plenty of friends who are tall. So it was just interesting that that almost a curse just haunted him all the time, and I never felt it. [00:13:43] Speaker A: He. He had acromegaly. [00:13:46] Speaker B: He did not. I'm so glad you asked that. One of my. One of the reasons I'm doing this, actually, Alan, is to disavow that and, and correct some misinformation. He did not. [00:13:59] Speaker A: He did not have it cool. [00:14:01] Speaker B: For some reason, people assume it because he was tall. And I think that I'm trying. I've been trying to figure out for a while. I think there's some medical order article from Australia that first claimed it. That's not the case. A congenital heart tumor. And they went in to take it out and there were complications from surgery. That's all it was. I. I'll tell you, I went in to get a new doctor a few years ago, and it was the first time he saw me. He's sitting there with his clipboard. He's talking. He says, oh, and you have acromegula. I went, what? He said, well, you, you know, 6 foot 7 or I was at the time. And I said, no, I do not. Some people just assume it. It's so strange. [00:14:45] Speaker A: It's. It's Funny how prevalent that is. [00:14:47] Speaker B: All over. [00:14:48] Speaker A: When you go looking at research on. On. On your dad all over the place associated with him. [00:14:54] Speaker B: Yes. You might see that I'm slowly trying to crawl in there. [00:14:56] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, in. In that case, doing a public service for sure. [00:15:01] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So, no, he didn't. And. And one of the reasons is. I don't know why I think this. There's some sort of negative connotation to that. It's a. It's a horrible disease. Whoever suffers from it, you know, I feel sorry it's bad. But it's also too bad that there's kind of this negative thing about it. And that's another reason. I don't want that associated with dad. But the fact is he didn't have it. I mean, all that telltale stuff, the forehead and all that. He didn't have any of that. He was an athlete. [00:15:30] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:15:31] Speaker B: Carried himself very well. [00:15:33] Speaker A: And yeah, your. Your dad was just unusually tall. [00:15:41] Speaker B: Right. [00:15:41] Speaker A: And. And that was. And that was burden enough. [00:15:44] Speaker B: Right. And in a small town in West Virginia. That was Frankenstein. [00:15:50] Speaker A: So he eventually gets out of the small town, he ends up in Florida at a place called Stetson University. [00:15:59] Speaker B: Yes. And he was on the basketball team there when he was a senior. They ended up there. [00:16:05] Speaker A: What position did your dad play at six nine in the NBA? He's a. He's a power forward. Carl Malone is six. Nine. [00:16:12] Speaker B: Right. He was a five then. Okay, I was a five. I was only six, seven. Anyway, so in 1954, they ended their season ranked fourth in the nation. I think was division three. So, yeah, that. That's pretty cool. [00:16:31] Speaker A: Did he enjoy playing basketball or was that. Oh, cool, cool, cool. [00:16:36] Speaker B: Yeah, he loved it and we loved it together. You know, we. Some of the best times I spent with my dad were at the night on the blacktop at high school, just the two of us. Just, you know, those. Those great moments. Yeah, that's really fun. Yeah, he enjoyed a lot. He. You know, he did that white beer commercial with Will chamberlain in the 70s. When you're my size, there's one thing you don't have to worry about, and that's getting filled up. So a lot of people are really surprised when they find out that I drank light beer for Miller. It has one third less calories than their regular beer and it's less filling. But that's not why I drink it. I drink light because I love that taste. Hey, Mac, Another light. Hey, man. What's going on? Shorty? Shorty. Light beer from Miller. Everything you Always wanted in a beer and less they actually became friends. I only found this out a few years ago because Will never came to our house. But dad apparently went over to his house or they hung out at restaurants or something a lot. And you know, dad wrote a few. [00:17:41] Speaker A: Scripts and yes, I wanna, definitely wanna get to the writing. Yeah, the writing. Multifaceted, multitalented man. [00:17:51] Speaker B: Really, really. Oh my goodness. Very, very talented man in a lot of ways that is not out there. Anyway, he, he wrote these scripts. In the one down, talking about basketball again. I remember one day sitting at the Brown Derby. Remember? Kind of a Santa Monica west la. [00:18:10] Speaker A: Oh my God, the Brown Derby. Holy go. [00:18:12] Speaker B: Yeah, the Brown Deer. I remember sitting with dad and Bill Russell as they discussed a film that dad had written for two tall guys in the West, White and black. I still love that script. Anyway, so another basketball story there. [00:18:33] Speaker A: He meets your mom at college, right? At Stetson. He, Helen, she was there. What did it say here? She was studying creative arts and psychology. [00:18:47] Speaker B: Yes. She is a psychologist. [00:18:49] Speaker A: She is a psychologist, yes. As we speak. [00:18:52] Speaker B: That's right. On Monday I fly up to Seattle to visit my mother and my sister. So you seeing her, right? She plays golf. I mean she's amazing. She's, she is an amazing. She also is multi talented. She plays multiple instruments, wrote music for the, the Reno Philharmonic or whatever they're called. She was a model early in life. She and Ted Turner share an Emmy for some television they produced together. And I can't even think, but both of my parents were impressive and set the bar high. [00:19:30] Speaker A: Your dad graduates college and he segues into radio broadcasting, does a little bit of work and Florida ends up in Dallas. [00:19:38] Speaker B: Right. [00:19:39] Speaker A: And as you said, while he was in Dallas, both a DJ and a sports director in Dallas. But he was in the middle of all the excitement on the day that JFK was assassinated. He was apparently among the first to interview we Newman Jr. And Gay Newman, two of the. [00:19:58] Speaker B: Right. [00:19:59] Speaker A: Those are two people in the grassy knoll. And your dad interviewed them. [00:20:02] Speaker B: I don't remember dad or mom even talking about it. I knew something was up, but my biggest indication was, I don't know, was it Saturday morning cartoons were preempted by the funeral. I remember not, not liking that, but I didn't know the significance really. [00:20:20] Speaker A: How, how old were you when JFK was assassinated? [00:20:23] Speaker B: I guess I was six. [00:20:25] Speaker A: So we are, we are roughly the same age. I was born in 1959. [00:20:29] Speaker B: 57. [00:20:30] Speaker A: 57. Oh, okay. Yeah. Because I, I, I do have memories of JFK's assassination of the TV being turned toward. Away from the usual and on to very somber stuff. [00:20:43] Speaker B: Yes. Yes. Yeah, it was. That was an interesting time. So I didn't really know about it, and I wondered why they didn't talk about it. Actually, I didn't know he was involved at all. One day in Rustic Canyon, I found a newspaper the day following the assassination of the Morning Dallas News that was mint condition. I thought, why do we have this? And then I found out. [00:21:09] Speaker A: And so suddenly, you know, this is a piece of history. And your father was a piece of history. And he never said anything. [00:21:14] Speaker B: He never said anything. And even when I asked him about it, he made very little of it. I don't know why. Can't ask him now. [00:21:21] Speaker A: Damn. [00:21:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:25] Speaker A: At what point did the acting bug suddenly grab a hold of him while he was in Dallas that suddenly he needed to take his shot? [00:21:35] Speaker B: Well, I don't know if it ever did. The. The show that he did, he was a DJ playing a lot of jazz discs. But at the same time, he had some characters. He liked to do voices. And he had a couple of puppets that would. As I forget their names now, but they used to eat his records. So these were little animals around his. You know, around his office that would get in his way and trouble him. And they had arguments and he had this cute little skit going. And I think he did some local stuff for the channel. I don't know what it was, but he would. They contacted him. He wasn't reaching out. So maybe now I'll tell you the story. [00:22:21] Speaker A: Go for it. [00:22:22] Speaker B: His sister Carol, my Aunt Carol was a stewardess for twa, and once she was on a stay over in Hawaii. And I don't know who the casting director was for the Adams family, but somehow they met on the beach and they were talking and, oh, I'm just starting this show. Oh, my. My brother is an actor and he's tall. And my understanding is I haven't been able to verify this anymore, but I remember hearing it, that Abe Pagoda was actually cast as Lurch, that it was done. And so dad was kind of coming in afterwards, and when they did his audition, it was explained to him what the character was kind of the original Charles Adams. Lurch was right bent over, hence the word Lurch, and had no lines, no grunts, no nothing. He was a lamp post. And, you know, my dad would not have that. He would do the best he could for this character. So they pulled the rope. He comes in and he ad libs. You rang? And the place just Fell apart. And from that moment on, he was hired. They gave him lines, they gave him story lines. He became what he became. Yeah. And I just, I just think that's great. He really rose the occasion. There. [00:23:39] Speaker A: There is a story that originally, when the show was built around Lurch the butler, and they originally offered that role to John Astin, and he was, they took him to lunch and they explained it to him, and he was very, he didn't get it. And he was on the verge a couple days later of just passing on the whole project when David Levy called him and said, come to luncheon. Went to an old Hollywood haunt and he listened to John vent. And finally he said, okay, what if you played. And I don't think the character was called Gomez at that point. [00:24:17] Speaker B: They had no names in the original comics. [00:24:19] Speaker A: Right, right, right. And so suddenly they agreed that, that John Aston would play the father figure who became Gomez. And they re. They changed the whole focus of the show away from the butler as the entry point to, I guess, the family as the entry point. [00:24:39] Speaker B: I'll tell you, Alan, it's the first I've ever heard that. I never heard that it was originally Lurch centric. I, I, where did you hear that? I'm curious. [00:24:50] Speaker A: I've, I've read that a couple of places now. [00:24:52] Speaker B: I know he was, I know he auditioned his Lurch or they wanted him as Lurch, that I know. But I didn't know that the, the show was around Lurch, and they came back to that later. I think the best episodes are the Lurch centric ones. Lurch Learns to Dance is the number one viewed episode. Come on, try it. This is my last. I have great memories of that because only my sister and I remember this. Dad was a, my mom was getting her psychology degree and those days, actually she wasn't home a lot. And so dad was home and just Cameron and I, my sister, were there and dad was rehearsal for that. And so you remember being with him in the, in the bedroom, and he's in front of a mirror trying out all this stuff to see what might look funny and ask us, is this funny? Of course. Everything he did was funny. We were on the floor the whole time. But it was just fast. And he's trying this and different things. And then when they get to actually doing it, when they roll tape and he first comes in. Yeah, I don't know if you remember, he kind of comes in like this. Well, the first time he did that too, but he came in as a graceful ballet dancer and they Had a cut. Ted, that's great, but that's not what we're going for here. He, like, he could not help himself. He so wanted to be, you know, regarded a serious actor and not the lamppost, you know, and so. And then he did this stuff, which today is just a great piece of physical comedy. [00:26:49] Speaker A: One of the last episodes was a romantic episode for the Lurch character. [00:26:54] Speaker B: Right, right. [00:26:55] Speaker A: The penultimate episode. [00:26:56] Speaker B: Yeah, that's right. It was penultimate. Very good. [00:27:00] Speaker A: Hey, hey. I mean, you don't get to use the word penultimate. [00:27:03] Speaker B: No, you don't. You don't. So good use. One of the real fun ones for me was Mother Lurch Visits Corbyn. [00:27:12] Speaker A: Yeah, there was. Didn't Margaret Hamilton also play a character? [00:27:19] Speaker B: Yes, she wasn't Lurch's mother, but she wasn't. And I remember meeting her. I guess that's an aside, too. I remember being scared to death. Here's the Wicked Witch of the west. [00:27:30] Speaker A: You know, and she played Morticia's mom. [00:27:34] Speaker B: Oh, okay. Okay. [00:27:35] Speaker A: I think. Yeah, Yeah, I think that. Yeah. [00:27:37] Speaker B: But I recognize. Recognized her as the Wicked Witch. I was kind of scared because, tell you, to this day, say she's the greatest evil character in all of cinema in my mind. And I got to meet her, and of course, she was just a lovely, wonderful woman. And. And that was great to see. So in the Mother, Lurch comes to visit. Ellen Corby was the mother, and just by coincidence, Dad's mother, my grandmother Emily from Philippi, West Virginia, was out to visit. So she was on set. And so I have a picture of dad and Ellen and Emily. It's just such a great shot as. [00:28:16] Speaker A: The Addams Family was running really, at the same time. The Munsters, right. How strange to have two shows. [00:28:24] Speaker B: How strange was that? Yeah. I'd heard forever that it was a total coincidence. The. More I've read. Not really. They kind of knew it was out there, you know, and it was like, Datsun, Toyota. I mean, it's like, which one do you pick? I made sure all my friends pled their. Their allegiance to the Adams family. [00:28:43] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Yeah. What. What a strange. And. And there was competition. [00:28:48] Speaker B: Absolutely, there was. [00:28:50] Speaker A: At the end of the year's. The first year's TV season, the Munsters ranked at number 18 with a rating of 24.7, and the Addams Family came in at 23 with a 23. 9 rating. Yeah, but. [00:29:05] Speaker B: Yeah, I always thought that was unfortunate. [00:29:07] Speaker A: But it's funny, because as competitive as the two shows were, at the end of each show's second Season. They both got canceled. Yeah, they both got canceled more or less at the same time. And yet neither has left the public's imagination. [00:29:23] Speaker B: Right, right. They carry on. And especially the Adams family. There's so many things about it which remain relevant today. And one thing great about the show, and John Aston talks about this is they were one of the first shows that showed, you know, a romantic love of a married couple. [00:29:47] Speaker A: Yes. [00:29:48] Speaker B: And I mean, they were. They were role models in terms of a married couple. [00:29:54] Speaker A: They. You sense that there was sexual dynamism between them. [00:29:59] Speaker B: And that was true on set too, because I. Even when I was there, I was maybe, you know, maybe there a dozen times over my life. But a few times, you know, they would have the tissue, spoke French and he'd start kissing her arm and he wouldn't stop there. And, you know, they. They had so much fun. I'm sure there was half as much. Half. Half the stuff was left on the cutting room floor because they couldn't use it. But it was just of necessity. [00:30:25] Speaker A: I mean, yeah, Standards and practices. [00:30:28] Speaker B: Right, right. There's a lot of laughter and fun on that set. They all got along really well. [00:30:33] Speaker A: It certainly seemed like it was a set where everyone was enjoying the process and the product. [00:30:41] Speaker B: Yeah, it was very fun. And for my sister and me, we had our own special take on this. The dressing rooms were kind of interesting. Dad's dressing room was a small one kind of behind the set. John's dressing room, you had to go out of the sound studio, across an alley, up some stairs to, like a little apartment. And as I recall, Morticia's was inset. It was large and it had a heart shaped bed. I remember that how. What kind of deal of that? [00:31:20] Speaker A: What kind of deal did Carolyn Jones make? Holy cow. I don't know. [00:31:23] Speaker B: Well, she was the star. She was the big star. She was the big name, wasn't she? [00:31:29] Speaker A: Was married to Aaron Spelling at the time, wasn't she? [00:31:31] Speaker B: I think that's right. Yeah. So there you go, a little power there. So my sister and I sometimes would hang out in Dad's dressing room while they were filming. You'd think we'd be out there wanting to watch. No, because you know how they work. Then they got the red light goes on, meaning don't breathe, don't do anything. We're filming. When that red light was on, we knew the donut cart was unguarded. So we would wait in Dad's dressing room. We would see that red light and we creep out and get a bunch of donuts. I mean, that's. What's better than that for a little kid. [00:32:06] Speaker A: A craft services table, man, that's. That is the candy store in which you want to be the kid. [00:32:12] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. That was really fun. [00:32:14] Speaker A: Frank Capra was such a fan of the Addams Family that he offered to come out of retirement and direct episodes. Apparently. [00:32:22] Speaker B: I did not know that, but apparently. [00:32:23] Speaker A: He couldn't reach a financial agreement with the showrunners. Another interesting thing. Let's see. Filmways did plan to shoot a season three in color, but ABC canceled the show before they had a chance. [00:32:40] Speaker B: And, you know, the real unfortunate thing I think of about the timing of the cancellation, my understanding, it was done in the summer when there was nobody there, when filming wasn't happening. And so a lot of the props for the show were taken by crew members of other shows. They heard about it, they came onto the set and they took everything. And the reason I kind of. It's too bad is that, you know, dad played Thing, right? He was Thing. And we would have loved to have a Thing box. I think there were three of them, and they were all gone. That was true. That was too bad. And another. Another thing to observe about that time that led to that was Ken Weatherwax played Pugsley, and he and I would pal around the lot a bit. And next door was Beverly Hillbillies. Across the alley was Mr. Ed. And we would go and walk into that soundstage. It wasn't locked. There was no security. There's nobody inside. All the props are just lying around. Are you kidding me? You know, the flip side of that is we didn't mess with anything. That. That was the era. We didn't mess with anything. There was no security. It all worked fine. But it's just such a great memory, I'm sure. [00:34:00] Speaker A: And you're walking through TV history. [00:34:03] Speaker B: TV history, yeah. Yeah. And it's funny, I remember seeing the horse, Mr. Ed, and it's going. You know, being as starstruck by the horses by any person, I saw that a lot. [00:34:19] Speaker A: That. That one didn't talk. I bet after the Addams Family. Well, actually, your dad wasn't entirely done with playing Lurch. He. He would play Lurch a few more times. He played Lurch in an episode of Batman. [00:34:34] Speaker B: Batman and Robin would scale a building. There was a thing then about somebody coming out a window and talking to them. And it was a thing then to be a guest star. People wanted that. [00:34:44] Speaker A: Right, right, right. I remember. [00:34:46] Speaker B: Yes. [00:34:46] Speaker A: I remember that now. [00:34:47] Speaker B: There are a lot of different people. So it was really fun. Oh, it's you. Batman gave me quite a start. Yes. Citizen, you may return to your harpsichord. [00:35:03] Speaker A: We're on official business. And of course, there was the animated Adams family series in 1973. Your. Your dad, of course, voiced that sure voice that. And after that, it was still acting work. Well, there was the movie. [00:35:20] Speaker B: The 1977 movie, Halloween with the Addams Family. [00:35:24] Speaker A: Right, right, right. So, yeah, not. [00:35:26] Speaker B: Not a great piece of film work there, but still. [00:35:32] Speaker A: It was a paycheck. [00:35:34] Speaker B: It was. [00:35:35] Speaker A: Sometimes it's just a paycheck. [00:35:37] Speaker B: You know, from what I've said, you probably surmise dad was not thrilled about reprising the role. But yeah, it was a paycheck. [00:35:46] Speaker A: It was. It is the curse. It is the role that made him. In essence, it is the role for which he is most remembered. And it's the role I'm sure by the end he least wanted to play. [00:36:01] Speaker B: Absolutely. He was. He wanted to be a serious actor. And of course, he recognized Lurch was his entry into Hollywood and that he always wanted to do something else. He. I think he. There's a video of him saying he wasn't proud of anything he ever did in Hollywood. Is. It just. They were seized them roles and that's not what he wanted. But I truly believe. And then one of the reasons I'm doing this, actually, my sister and I talked a little bit because she wondered why I would do kind of a son of Lurch. You remember, dad didn't even like Lurch. I know, but I think if he were alive today, he would see what a. What a part of Americana Lurch has become, what a great job he did with that role. The subtle comedy he did with that role is just unmatched. And I think he would feel differently about it now. [00:36:52] Speaker A: So it does take time sometimes for the work to. And perspective to be seen within the perspective of the culture in which it was created. [00:37:03] Speaker B: Right. [00:37:04] Speaker A: And we are all small pieces of a mosaic, a much larger mosaic. And sometimes we don't realize our place in the mosaic. [00:37:11] Speaker B: How poetic, Alan. That's so true. [00:37:13] Speaker A: Well, thank. I should write that down. [00:37:15] Speaker B: Should write that down. [00:37:18] Speaker A: Your. Your dad appeared in. In a lot of TV shows in addition to Batman and Star Trek. Three episodes. [00:37:25] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:37:26] Speaker A: Man. From Uncle Beverly Hill, Billy's Mr. Terrific. That was a good show. [00:37:30] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:37:31] Speaker A: Got Daniel Boone, I Dream of Genie Mannix, Bonanza, Ironside, Banach Ray. [00:37:38] Speaker B: You got them all. Okay. [00:37:39] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. Later. Bionic Woman, the Six Million Dollar Man. I mean, your dad, lots of stuff. [00:37:47] Speaker B: Yeah, he. [00:37:48] Speaker A: He. He was still, his brand had value is how we would put it today. [00:37:56] Speaker B: Right. [00:37:56] Speaker A: He. He was a recognizable brand. [00:37:59] Speaker B: Right. And even beyond that, just as a person, he was just. Lurch was obviously bigger than life, but so was Ted Cassidy. He was just a big man with a big personality. He entertained by his very nature. And, you know, so that. That. That served him well through all of that. One thing I don't read about much, but I remember is dad was. Must have been the mid to later 60s. Dad was on the Mike Douglas show and sang as Ted Cassidy saying, the wind calls. They call the wind Mariah. You know that song Store? [00:38:37] Speaker A: Sure. For P. Wagon. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:38:39] Speaker B: And I. Right. And I remember him practicing it in the den and then on the show. And he probably liked that better than anything else he did because it was him and a real talent rather than the lamp post. Sees them stuff he saw himself as. I really think it was so much better than that. And, you know, it's too bad, you know, I can't have that conversation now. [00:39:02] Speaker A: But was he at least in any way satisfied with his work as Harvey Logan and Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid? [00:39:11] Speaker B: Well, it was another sees them role, but I'm glad you brought that up. That was maybe the happiest he was ever in his career. There's one shot, especially of Redford and Newman and George Roy Hill, and the four of them are talking, and it looks like Hill's just finished a joke. And all three of them, the other three are just the best smile on my dad's face I've ever seen. He was in his element. He was with the big boys. It was a real big picture. [00:39:42] Speaker A: And he holding his own. Oh, my God. That is a. What a. An incredible early scene in the movie Sundance. [00:39:52] Speaker B: When we're done, if he's dead, you're welcome to stay. Listen, I don't mean to be a sore loser, but when it's done, if I'm dead, kill him. I'd love to. No, no, not yet. Not until me and Harvey get the rules straightened out. Rules In a knife fight? No rules. Well, if there ain't gonna be any rules, let's get the fight started. [00:40:26] Speaker A: Someone count one, two, three, go. [00:40:27] Speaker B: One, two, three, go. [00:40:32] Speaker A: I was really rooting for you, Butch. [00:40:35] Speaker B: Well, thank you, Flat nose. That's what sustained me in my time of trouble. All right, here's. Here's my favorite take on that. I was young, and dad was Wayne. He sent me a letter, and I haven't seen it in years. I hope I still have it, but he sent me a letter to say that the scene was going to happen. And what. He and Paul talked about it, and they decided they're both professionals. They want to make this look as real as possible. So the plan, emphasize the word plan, Was they would. And they did put a pillow around dad's thigh under the jeans. The plan was Paul would hit the pillow. Of course, his foot would ride up, but at least it would take some of the brunt. Well, Palm mist. And hit him dead on. And he told me that look on his face was real. [00:41:30] Speaker A: It is the. The shot as he is on. As. [00:41:34] Speaker B: As he's. [00:41:35] Speaker A: Harvey Logan is on the ground and he's. And he suddenly realized as. As Sundance is going, 1, 2, 3, go. And Harvey Logan knows what's coming, and it is not going to be fun. Yeah. There is a look that is. Man, you cannot act. That look that is. I have hired a lot of actors. I have never, ever hired an actor to act. It is the last thing I want an actor to do. All the acting the camera will see. We have to cut it out and land up on the floor. [00:42:05] Speaker B: You want them to be b. [00:42:08] Speaker A: And it is. But that's why he is so good in. In that small role. He's still being. [00:42:16] Speaker B: Yes. [00:42:17] Speaker A: Being Harvey. And in that moment. Yes. Even his last moment, that. That grunt is fantastic. However they got that grunt is fantastic. And the look on his face, even in repose afterwards when he's on the ground. [00:42:32] Speaker B: Right. [00:42:33] Speaker A: It's still. It still carries over. [00:42:35] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, it does. He. He loved that. I'll send you a couple of pictures from that shoot. [00:42:41] Speaker A: And. And he got to speak one of the great lines. Rules in a knife fight. No rules. [00:42:47] Speaker B: Yeah. I believe that's on AFI's list of the hundred greatest movie quotes. [00:42:51] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. He got to say it before he got kicked in the nuts, but. Oh, okay. Okay. [00:42:56] Speaker B: Right, right. Whatever the price is. Right. That's it. [00:42:59] Speaker A: Hey, no one said greatness was easy. [00:43:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:43:03] Speaker A: Your dad and your mom also appeared in a game show called It Takes Two. [00:43:09] Speaker B: Yes. With Vince. Yeah. [00:43:13] Speaker A: Host. It ran from 1969 to 1979. 153 episodes. Celebrity couples. At least one of the two is a celebrity competing for prizes on behalf of, I guess, regular people in the audience. [00:43:26] Speaker B: Right. [00:43:29] Speaker A: Answering questions like, how many chicken legs can a college football team eat during the show? [00:43:35] Speaker B: I don't remember any of the questions. [00:43:37] Speaker A: Apparently, that was the kind of question. And looking at the. The. Over the course of 153 episodes, the celebrities. I'm just going to throw A couple of names just because, like Shelley Berman, James Darin, Buddy Greco, Marty Ingalls, Marlow Thomas, Richard Long, Jim. Back is Greg Morris, Maury Amsterdam, Dean Jones, Dan Rowan, John Astin, Milton Berle, Dom deluise, Sebastian, Jen Cabert, Robert Clary, Dion Warwick, Dorothy Lamore, Rod Serling, Betty White, Mel Tor, Groucho Marx. Your dad and mom made it through five episodes. [00:44:11] Speaker B: Wow. [00:44:12] Speaker A: The best was Shelley Berman and bit part actor Mickey Manners and comedian Stanley Myron Handleman, who made it through 11 episodes. [00:44:22] Speaker B: Wow. Well, you know, I don't remember that other than a picture I have of that. And what I love about the picture is it shows Vin with, I don't know, you know, the, the woman attendant, whatever. And you see two of the couples back here, Milton Berle and dad. Mom and dad. Mom's score is higher. [00:44:41] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. It must be because they won at least four shows. [00:44:47] Speaker B: Exactly, yeah. [00:44:48] Speaker A: Wow. So bravo. They did very, very well. And then your. Your dad writing Suddenly. Was he writing all along? Did he turn to writing? Because suddenly, in 1973, he's the CO writer of the Harrod Experiment. [00:45:05] Speaker B: Right. Well, he and Noel Marshall, who was the executive producer of the Exorcist, were very good buddies. Noel's wife at the time was Tippy Hedron. Sure, sure, sure. So I remember going over to their house a lot and you might know that Hedron runs Shambhala, which is a. A refuge for big cats, lions, tigers, etc in Acton, California. So when I would go there to visit, they had big cats. I think it was in Sherman Oaks. I'm sure it was not in compliance with zoning. Yeah, I have another one I can send you, Alan. There's a picture of me with my arm around. Around a lion in their backyard pool. Like, what were my parents thinking? I don't know. [00:45:57] Speaker A: But you're still here, so. [00:45:59] Speaker B: Yeah. So anyway, he and Noel buddied up and I don't know if you know the movie Roar that. That Tippy and Melanie Griffith and Noel did. And dad and Noel wrote that together. I don't know if he got a. [00:46:17] Speaker A: The credit, I think is additional material by something in that territory. [00:46:21] Speaker B: It's a lot more than that. I remember they're kind of arguing about that, but whatever. So there was that. The Herod Experiment kind of came from that. Then was Don Johnson was in that? [00:46:33] Speaker A: Yes, Don. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:46:35] Speaker B: Don Johnson and Melanie were together at that. Yeah. [00:46:37] Speaker A: And Melanie Griffith. [00:46:38] Speaker B: That was the connection. [00:46:40] Speaker A: Your dad also wrote some additional dialogue on the film Catch the Black Sunshine. [00:46:47] Speaker B: Yes. [00:46:47] Speaker A: In 1974. [00:46:49] Speaker B: He was a wordsmith. He was. He was a very intelligent guy. He was captain of his debate team at Stetson, and he instilled that in me. I enjoy writing. And one of the fun stories I remember from my childhood is that I would ask that, you know this word. What does this mean? Well, look it up. And so it got to the point where we would spend some evenings sitting on the couch, reading the dictionary. We would like. We had this thing, we close our eyes, go like this, and then read every word on the page and discuss it. And it was just so fun. And I really got a love of language and writing and word smithing from him. So he enjoyed that all along, and it was kind of a one. Another thing he loved in his career was voiceover. And of course, he had this fantastic voice. He was the evil character in every Santa, Hannah Barber, Santa Barbara, Hannah Barbera cartoon in the 70s. And he loved that. And one of the reasons he loved it, it's being tall didn't mean anything. You sit at that table with a microphone with these other creative people, and that's what counts. And so the same with writing. Being tall doesn't matter. [00:48:09] Speaker A: Indeed. [00:48:10] Speaker B: Like that he would see his talent. He would be appreciated for what it was. Rather than being 6 foot 9. [00:48:16] Speaker A: Your dad did a ton of voice work. [00:48:20] Speaker B: That's where to be honest, that's where most of his money came from, was voiceover. He got some big national commercials. They paid really well. One of the stories, I remember that there was an audition for Schlitz Beer, and dad at the time was quitting smoking, but it made his voice kind of raspy. So I remember going there and I was sitting in the room with him, and they were doing it, and the voice wasn't perfect. So he said, give me a minute. We went out in the hallway and he's cussing out the world as he's smoking a cigarette. To get that smooth, he went back and he killed it. And all the guys in there, oh, this is the best. This is, I'm sure, but, you know, they're not the money. And I believe Paul Freeze, another famous voiceover guy, he got. He got the gig, but dad got Goodyear Tire and a bunch of other really big ones that paid really well. [00:49:16] Speaker A: Losing to Paul Freeze is. [00:49:18] Speaker B: Is right. [00:49:19] Speaker A: Is understandable. [00:49:20] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:49:21] Speaker A: Okay. One of the greats, right? [00:49:25] Speaker B: Yeah. Dad's favorite, he said from the Hannah Barbera days was Donovan Dawes. He thought he was just from another planet. [00:49:33] Speaker A: He was so the voice of. Of boy. What did Dodge Huckleberry Huckleberry Hound. Yeah, yeah. [00:49:40] Speaker B: A bunch of those characters. [00:49:41] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:49:43] Speaker B: I remember dad saying it was the only guy he ever heard who could produce two different notes at the same time coming out of his mouth. I don't even know what that means, but I remember dad saying that, that he was just very talented, an amazing. [00:50:01] Speaker A: Group of voice actors working that particular room at that particular time. Wow, what a. What a group of people. Your dad also did like the Adam ant show, Frankenstein Jr. The Fantastic. For Godzilla. Yes, he was the voice of Godzilla. [00:50:19] Speaker B: He was. Was it Godzilla or the Frankenstein Jr. Godzilla? I guess both. [00:50:25] Speaker A: Both. [00:50:26] Speaker B: And then I. I was older, I didn't want. I never watched any of that. I didn't even know about half of it. [00:50:31] Speaker A: Sure, yeah. But still, that an incredible body of work and it was lucrative and. And as you said, it was work he could do without feeling self conscious about. [00:50:42] Speaker B: Right, right. And I remember the voiceover work he did for the Incredible Hulk. That was a lot of fun. I remember him going to do voiceover grunts like you think they might just reuse stuff. They didn't. Every episode he watched and he matched and put the grunts in there. Of course he did the opening credit. Voice over. David Banner, physician, scientist, searching for a way to tap into the hidden strengths that all humans have. Through that, of course, he got to know Lou Ferrigno and. And dad was a weightlifter that I am too, and got to meet Lou and wow, back in the day, you know, and he could lift a town on his own. That was something else. Lou was huge. [00:51:32] Speaker A: When you decided that you weren't going to act and you were going to pursue law, was your dad still around when you made that decision? [00:51:42] Speaker B: No, I was in college when he passed, actually. That explains part of it. I went to college without clear idea of what I was going after, is a lot of 18 year olds. But what we sort of had planned was dad was going to start in the production area and I remember working with him putting those, those scheduling boards. Do you remember those boards? Little strips and you move them around and all. [00:52:08] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, my gosh. [00:52:10] Speaker B: So Ian, he invented his own and he. He did a couple of projects and that's where he wanted to move into, was writing and production and kind of behind the camera. And the idea just. We talked about it all the time is I just join him, we'd be a team. So I went to college because you go to college, but that's what I was going to do. And there aren't a lot of classes in college prepare you for that. So whatever. I just did my thing. But then during college, he passed. And then I thought, oh, well, that was sort of my plan now what? And I have a good buddy who was teaching the Barbary at the time and said, hey, do you want to. It was kind of path of least resistance, actually becoming a lawyer. It was not a burning passion. [00:52:55] Speaker A: What kind of law did you eventually. [00:52:58] Speaker B: Planning wills and trusts, a little real estate, Try to stay out of the courtroom, do more transactions, service the client. [00:53:08] Speaker A: That has. Have you been happy in. In your work? [00:53:12] Speaker B: How many happy lawyers do you know? No, no, that this line of work is okay. And one of the reasons I like this area is you're dealing with people in their personal feelings and their family relationships and how they can feel more secure about the future. And that, that was appealing to me and I like that. But no, it's not acting or music or writing. [00:53:35] Speaker A: So, you know, I see a couple of guitars behind yes. [00:53:39] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah, I play, I play guitar playing a couple of bands, love doing that. [00:53:46] Speaker A: So really and truly, the creative spark really is. Is in you. [00:53:51] Speaker B: Right. And like I said, though, as a kid, I remember watching dad by the phone, I thought, yeah, creative spark and all, but how do you make money? [00:54:00] Speaker A: Well, if you're going to ask practical questions, you're gonna. I know, gonna ruin it. [00:54:04] Speaker B: Exactly. Well, that, that's, that's the other thing. As long as they stay hobbies, there's still a lot of fun. The moment a hobby becomes your professional, a lot of people go, it changes character, you know, but anyway, that's not the reason. [00:54:19] Speaker A: So you still, it's still brings you joy. It's. [00:54:23] Speaker B: Oh, I love it. I love music, I love writing. I have one novel in the can I'm working on number two. [00:54:32] Speaker A: And what is your novel called? [00:54:34] Speaker B: The Last straw. Now it's not out. I. I had a literary agent a while ago, actually had a sit down with Sony. They wanted to go straight to film. Nothing ever happened. And now I think I might just throw it up on Amazon or itunes or however all that stuff works now, because back then that was kind, you know, was not nowadays, though, it's. It's mainstream, so I may just go ahead and do that. [00:55:01] Speaker A: What have you got to lose? [00:55:03] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:55:04] Speaker A: And holy God, if it suddenly catches fire and you suddenly get a bunch of readers and the next thing you know, you're off on a whole. You're going to prove F. Scott Fitzgerald wrong. There. There are second acts to American lives, you idiot. [00:55:20] Speaker B: Well, I got These two. And through a lot of this Son of Lurch stuff, I'm keeping it to you. We might compile it into a book about dad, so there might be that as well. [00:55:30] Speaker A: Your. Your dad. Certainly his. When you consider he never was the star of anything. Yet we are talking about him. He is as relevant today as. As when he did his work. [00:55:49] Speaker B: I think so. Maybe. Maybe more so. [00:55:52] Speaker A: Yeah, indeed. I. I think you could make that argument. In fact, I think you are making that argument, Sean. [00:55:59] Speaker B: With a smile. I like to argue with a smile. [00:56:02] Speaker A: Well, of course. Good. Well, you're not in the courtroom, are you? [00:56:05] Speaker B: Right. [00:56:06] Speaker A: I. I cannot thank you enough for. For spending this. This time with us and. And sharing your. Your memories about your dad. He sounds like he was a wonderful, wonderful dad. [00:56:17] Speaker B: Oh, he was. I miss him every day, for sure. Wonderful dad. Fun person to be around. Yeah. Well, Alan, want to thank you very much. This was wonderful. You well prepared, and I loved a lot of the thoughts you spark in my mind as we talk. And, you know, thank you. Maybe we'll do some more in August. I'm at a festival in West Virginia called Lurch Festival. The town where dad grew up. [00:56:45] Speaker A: Yes, yes, I'm aware of Lurchville. [00:56:47] Speaker B: And. And I'll be doing that last time I was in makeup. We'll see about this time. That makeup is not fun. So we'll see. [00:56:55] Speaker A: Can't you people just get it? Look, here's a picture. [00:56:59] Speaker B: So we're going to be doing that. And of course, the 60th anniversary is this year and Horror Con again, so maybe there'll be occasion to meet up again. [00:57:09] Speaker A: Oh, I expect we will. I will be at Horror Con LA again this year. They've. I'm actually. I've actually been helping them plan a little bit. A couple. A couple of their things. [00:57:19] Speaker B: You and Alex are good buddies. [00:57:21] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's. We. We're like that. It's. [00:57:25] Speaker B: Oh, excellent. [00:57:26] Speaker A: It's almost weird. [00:57:28] Speaker B: Has he talked to you about Son of Lurch? Because we've had a few telephone calls. [00:57:32] Speaker A: We have not talked about that, but I will mention next time we speak that we have. We've broken creative bread together here. [00:57:42] Speaker B: Right, Right. [00:57:43] Speaker A: And it's a conversation that. Hey, you never know what this could breed. [00:57:50] Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah. Well, thank you very much. I really appreciate it. [00:57:54] Speaker A: Thank you so much, Sean. And thank you, everybody, as always, and we'll see you next time. The how not to Make a Movie podcast is executive produced by me, Alan Katz, by Gil Adler, and by Jason Stein. Our artwork was done by the amazing Jody Webster and Jason. Jody, along with Mando, are all the hosts of the fun and informative Dads from the Crypt podcast. Follow them for what my old pal the Crypt Keeper would have called Terror Rapid Crip Content.