S4E6: Oscars Shmoscars - It's The Hack-Cademy A-Weirds!

[00:00:00] Speaker A: This podcast is a collaboration between Costard and Touchstone Productions and the Dads from the Crypt podcast. [00:00:18] Speaker B: Hello. [00:00:22] Speaker A: Hello, hello. Ah, the whole Fang Club is here. [00:00:27] Speaker B: Hello, baby booby bubby. [00:00:37] Speaker A: Uh oh. [00:00:38] Speaker B: I think my producers are trying to tell me something. Well, what do you know? I asked for Final Cut and I got it. Now that's entertainment. [00:01:06] Speaker A: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the how not to Make a Movie podcast. I'm Alan Katz, and with me is. [00:01:14] Speaker B: None other than your partner from long ago and far away and back again, Gil Adler. [00:01:20] Speaker A: And just in time for the hacademy of weirds. First and foremost, how have you been? [00:01:25] Speaker B: I've been great. I've been great. You know, it's sunny up here in Vancouver, where I live, and it's been very cold, 25 degrees, which I don't like, but they tell me spring is coming, maybe in August or October. And it's good. It's good. And the weather today, today is gorgeous. It's Sunny, it's about 35 degrees, maybe 40 degrees even, and just came back from a walk on the beach with the dog. [00:01:53] Speaker A: The perfect day for your. Happy birthday to you. Oh, Happy birthday to you Happy birthday, my dear partner. Gil. Happy birthday to you. [00:02:12] Speaker B: Thank you. Thank you very much. Time for my nap. [00:02:16] Speaker A: Now, I know that the number used to be verboten. Is the number still verboten? [00:02:22] Speaker B: No, no, I'm 49. [00:02:26] Speaker A: Exactly. See, to be ashamed of. [00:02:29] Speaker B: Seven. Nine. My friends, next year is going to be a big one. If I make it. [00:02:36] Speaker A: You know, everyone's. Every year's a big one. Really, Right? [00:02:41] Speaker B: It is. [00:02:42] Speaker A: Really and truly. It's. Yeah. Yeah, I guess because there's a zero after the next number. I guess there's a certain. A certain cliff's edge that you. That you can now clutch on to. [00:02:55] Speaker B: I keep hoping you're going to catch up to me, but every time I turn around, I get another year. [00:02:59] Speaker A: I'm trying, I keep slipping. Well, you know, I always sucked at math. Emma, you were good at numbers and I kind of sucked. So there you go. That's the curse. [00:03:09] Speaker B: Yeah, but then I should be 29 if I was so good at numbers. [00:03:13] Speaker A: If you were so good at numbers. [00:03:16] Speaker B: Well, so something happened yesterday that I thought might be an interesting kickoff for the topic for today's conversation with our group. And. And it's kind of interesting because I think many people probably have the same problem. A guy calls me up, who I've known all my life. We met, I think, in kindergarten, and I've known him all these Years. Very conservative guy. Always was a conservative guy. His dad was very conservative. His dad was an attorney in Yonkers. He became an attorney. He went into. I'm not sure if he went into dissolution or dismemberment of corporations or if he went into. I don't think he went into trusts and that kind of stuff, which is. [00:04:05] Speaker A: He was in the business of helping corporations break apart. [00:04:09] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And not a very exciting, you know, guy, and not a very exciting topic of work. If I became a lawyer, I would have think of, thought of something else to do, but that's what he did, and that was his life. And I. He calls me up and we're having a chat. I haven't spoken to him probably in four months, maybe, but. And I speak to him maybe three or four times a year, and we start talking, and he goes back to something that he asked me or he asks me all the time, and I try to answer him. And as I'm trying to answer him, I'm thinking, huh, I wonder if a lot of people have this problem and maybe we could help explain as best we can. Although it's unexplainable how we do what we do. Because he starts off the conversation by saying, so I've never really quite understood what you do, so can you tell me, what do you do first? You get the money, right? You raise the money? Or. Or. Or do you get the actor? Or. Or. And I said, well, you know, first of all, it happens in many different ways. There's no one way that it happens. And he goes, yeah, yeah, but what do you do first? You know, this lawyerness of him. I think it has to be A, B, C gets you to D. And there's only one way. Yeah, yeah, there's only. And so I go, no. And he goes, well, why don't you. Why don't you pick one of the shows that you've done and just tell me how it happened? I said, okay, I could do that. And so we started talking about Tales from the Crypt, but then that sort of led into talking about some of the big pictures I did at Warner Brothers. And I said, but you see, what I'm telling you, there is no one way. Usually, for example, Alan and I would come up with an idea, and maybe in those days, we would go to HBO because we were very popular at HBO because we had a hit show, and maybe we would tell them the idea, and maybe they would say, oh, that's a great idea, and we want you to write something. Or maybe they would Say we don't like it, in which case we would go someplace else. Or maybe they would say, well, we like this of it, but we don't like that of it. So maybe you think about that and maybe come back with it with a different. A different take. And I said, so. So that's. He goes, yeah, but. So that's what you do first. I said, well, no, that's what we did on many occasions. But I have also, in recent years, I've been approached with money, asking me what do I want to do. That's a whole different set of circumstances, because you really want to make sure what you suggest you do is something you really want to do. [00:06:50] Speaker A: Okay, side note, now we're stepping aside from that conversation. Okay? Now that. Okay, that's an interesting way to get the money, where the money says to you, what do you want to do? [00:07:05] Speaker B: It's a very interesting way of getting it because it takes nothing on my part. I. I answer a phone call or an email, and I go, huh? And then they go, yeah, we're real. Here's our lawyer. Here's what we have. And, you know, we. Your movies have been very successful and they seem to be mainstream, so we'd like to know what you want to make. And I go, oh, let me think about that. And then in one instance, they came back to me with something that I thought was interesting and could be a franchise, because I'm really only interested in making franchise and making two, three, and four movies of an area. Or in one instance, they gave me a script, and it was awful. But I liked the idea of it. I liked that I had a potential for an international franchise and an international audience. And so I said, this is a terrible script. You need to rewrite. But I have somebody that I've just read a script of theirs that I really like a lot. I've been working with him for, on and off, four or five years, maybe longer, and maybe you want to read this script to see if it's. If you'd be interested in having him do the rewrite on your script. I send them the script, and lo and behold, they call me up and they go, not only do we want him to rewrite our script, but we want to finance this script as well. I go, well, hold on a second. I don't know if I need you for this. I could probably go to a studio or go to Netflix or a, you know, streamer, and I could probably get this financed, so why would I do it with you? And they told me, why I should do it with them. What made sense. And so I said, okay, well, how about if we. I convey the rights to you for a certain amount of time, after which they revert back to us or we're unsuccessful, I get the rights back, and I then can do that. And. And yet. And also this guy writes this other script for you, which I'm also going to produce. So that happened. The script, he did a very good job. We're trying to get that one cast, and in the meantime, we're trying to get his movie cast. So it's a very different way of going about doing this than I did, you know, years ago, when Warner Brothers would come up and say, here's a script that we want to make, and we need you to make it. So I'm trying to explain to this guy that there's no one way and that everybody's experience is different. And I said to him, you know, I don't know if you know the story of Cuckoo's Nest, but Michael Douglas had the rights and his dad had the rights for cuckoo's nest for 14 years. They said they thought he was nuts trying to make that movie. And only when he found this guy, Saul Sands, who had fantasy records, I think it was, in San Francisco, were they able to make the movie independently. And it went on to win Academy Awards after 14 years. And these are two of the biggest stars and power people in Hollywood. So I said, so that's also part of it. Things don't happen fast, and now they happen even slower over the. [00:10:22] Speaker A: It was never an easy business. [00:10:25] Speaker B: No, to. [00:10:26] Speaker A: To be part of. It seems to have gotten harder to be part of, even if you've got the bona fides to say, you know, trust me with the money. [00:10:38] Speaker B: I often tell students or people that ask me whether they be graduate students or. Or undergraduate students or just people that want to be in the business. I. I ask them, why do they want to be in the business? And I tell them, if there's anything else you can do that would make you happy, you should do it. Because it's a very painful journey. Even when it's good, it's painful. So it's never a piece of cake, and it's never easy. It's always a battle with the money or getting the money, which most people understand that concept, or getting the actors, because they don't want to do this, they want to do that, or they want to be nominated for an Academy Award. So they don't want to do an action adventure or it's Just a very difficult time. [00:11:26] Speaker A: It's a hard dream to dissuade people from, because what's their alternative? [00:11:32] Speaker B: Well, that's the point. If I, if you have an alternative, if you have something else that could make you happy and you can make a living from. [00:11:39] Speaker A: They say in their minds they want, they need to tell this story, and nothing, there's nothing to compare, really, to telling the story. [00:11:51] Speaker B: That was our problem, too, when we were younger. That's what we wanted to do. That's how we got into this and how, that's how we, you know, how it all sort of came about. [00:12:00] Speaker A: Yes, indeed, it was. These days, I, I tell everyone, podcast it. Podcast it first. At least you'll tell the story. You might not make any money, but you could. There are multiple ways to do it. And if you tell the story well enough, the movie and TV might offer might come chasing you. [00:12:25] Speaker B: Well, I think you're right about that, because there's really no more Off Broadway. Off Broadway has become almost as commercialized as Broadway. So there's no starting point. Like, I started off Off Broadway and then Off Broadway and then finally did something on Broadway. But, and, and there's no, you know, you, you were, you were involved with the Gremlins a little bit in, in Los Angeles when we first started out, right? [00:12:53] Speaker A: How do you mean? [00:12:54] Speaker B: The grim. It wasn't the Gremlins. [00:12:56] Speaker A: Oh, the Groundlings. Groundlings, yeah, the Groundlings. Yeah, yeah, yeah, the Gremlins. Yes, I, I, I, I was, but I didn't know that you knew about that. [00:13:05] Speaker B: And, and that's a way of starting, especially if you're in comedy, which is still around and it's still a possibility, but it's more difficult because fewer people are coming out of there, and fewer people are looking there for their big break, and they're looking there for their new star. So it's a very difficult and very challenging way. So the podcast, you control totally. It's totally up to you what you want to do and how you want to do it. It's up to you to manufacture it, it's up to you to sell it. It's up to you to generate an audience so unlike anything else, except maybe writing a book. [00:13:41] Speaker A: You control it all and you own it. [00:13:46] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:47] Speaker A: And that becomes really, really important. At the end of the day, get owning your shit. [00:13:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:54] Speaker A: Because the problem with the screenplay is that even if somebody options it, okay, now you're one of the things you're going to have to sign as a writer, usually, even if you option it Some's going to want you to sign a C of A before they pay you. [00:14:13] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:14:13] Speaker A: A certificate of authorship. [00:14:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:14:15] Speaker A: And a certificate of authorship, basically is the writer surrendering all rights to the material in perpetuity throughout the known universe. [00:14:25] Speaker B: If the movie gets made. Otherwise they all revert back to him. [00:14:28] Speaker A: At some point or it. At some point. At some point. And even that can. Can be. Can get a little convoluted and complicated depending upon how if, if. If it gets optioned or paid for this way or that way. If it was. If it was lucky enough to have a shot or two, could be forever, you know, admired. Yeah. So ownership is everything. [00:15:00] Speaker B: So I'm trying to tell this guy, I have two movies right now. They're both financed. One is an $80 million budget. One is a $50 million budget. Big budgets. Big, big, big action adventure. Really interesting. Both franchisable, if there's such a word. Could make 2, 3, 4, which makes me more and more interested. And I'm trying to cast it. And a lot of these actors don't want to do that. They want to do something that they can get nominated for an Academy Award or they want to do something that they haven't done before, or they just don't want to do it. They don't want to work. And so we're trying to cast this movie. I've never been in this situation before where I have a really good script per the agents that are out there. I have the money. I have two very good directors, and I'm trying to cast it. [00:16:00] Speaker A: And you got the money? [00:16:02] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, the money's there. The money's there to the point where as soon as somebody says yes, they'll escrow the money immediately for that person. So they'll be guaranteed their money. And. And even. [00:16:16] Speaker A: So there's a payday sitting. Sitting there. Somebody look, you're going to work for how many weeks is anyone going to be working on any of these projects? [00:16:25] Speaker B: Probably. Oh, I forgot how many there were. Maybe three months, four months, say, oh, for sake. [00:16:32] Speaker A: Really, you can do something else. This same calendar year, people. [00:16:35] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, probably a couple things. What are you doing? And yet. And even offering them more money than they ever gotten before, there's hesitation. Or there are. Agents are like, well, we were looking for. We're looking for a. You know, if I. If it were a studio, they'd probably jump, but because it's an independent, they're like, a little bit trepidatious about the whole situation. It's. It's. It's remarkable. But as so going back to this conversation with my friend. So I said to him, so you see, I'm trying to tell you there are very different ways of getting there. And he's saying to me, yeah, but, but what do you do first? And I go, oh God, I've just been talking to you for a half hour, trying to explain to you this, various ways of what comes first and you're still stuck on oh, it's got to be A, B, C, D. Well. [00:17:28] Speaker A: You know, maybe for someone like that. And then a good analogy would be a mountain. Look at it from 360 degrees. How do you gonna, how, how are you gonna climb it? There are multiple ways probably to climb the mountain. Multiple ways. And that includes helicoptering onto it if you're of a mind to do that. Think outside the box. [00:17:54] Speaker B: I'm gonna tell him next time I speak to him, hopefully not for three months, I'll use the helicopter and I'll use the mountain and I'm still gonna, he's still going to come back to me. Said Joe, what do you do? What do you do first? [00:18:05] Speaker A: You know, my, my dad was a surgeon. You, you, you met my dad. He, he sat on, on our Tales from the Crip set. Oh yeah, they, my parents saw what I did for a living and at the end I, I still heard them say to one of their parents, to one, one of their friends. I'm not entirely sure what he does. [00:18:32] Speaker B: Well, my dad used to tell people because they would say, what is he doing? What is he doing? He's doing this off Broadway. What is this? And my dad would say, look, he doesn't ask me for money. I don't think he's doing drugs. He seems happy. So it's a phase. He's going through a phase. He'll get through the phase and then he'll either work in the store. My dad had a floor covering store. Or, or like his brother in law, he'll become an accountant. And that's how it was. Forever. So some people you can't explain these things to, they just don't get it. [00:19:09] Speaker A: Hey, you know, maybe we should do Love and Linoleum as a podcast, as a fiction podcast, as just a, a podcast episode or something. [00:19:18] Speaker B: Yeah, that would be fun. That would be fun. [00:19:21] Speaker A: Hold on, wait, wait a minute. We could take everything we, that we never got made and that's this and that's, and that's the podcast. It, it never got made. And we get to all of our friends, right? All the scripts that they Never got made. Oh, my God. Oh, we just stumbled on something. Yes. And. And this is. We don't have to do the whole thing, but. But we do a bunch of scenes from it Never got Made. [00:19:45] Speaker B: By the way, did. Did you see the, the documentary on Christopher Reeve? [00:19:50] Speaker A: I have not seen it yet. [00:19:52] Speaker B: You should see it. It's really well done. [00:19:55] Speaker A: Oh, good. [00:19:56] Speaker B: I, I saw it and I thought I was going to be very upset and very depressed, and I wasn't. I really felt a little good about it, you know, a little good about what we did with him and how we worked with him and all that. And I, I felt that was. They did a very good job. [00:20:14] Speaker A: Oh, good, good, good, good. Yeah. Chris. It's funny the, the relationship that we had with Chris, you especially. And again, because it was actor to actor to. And director. And the way that you kind of broke him down. [00:20:36] Speaker B: Well, he's. After he broke me down. [00:20:39] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But. But in the end, he, he came around and he, you know, you were the alpha and he was the beta and he was. And he was happy. [00:20:48] Speaker B: Yeah. And then, you know, and I think it made. Although he never took us up on it. When I, When I called Dana years later after the accident and he was recovering and offered him a Tales from the Cryptidirect, she seemed very pleased about that and was. And thought that he would be very pleased when she told him. So that was. That was good. Even though he never took us up on it. [00:21:11] Speaker A: But, you know, it's. It's. It's the offer. [00:21:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:14] Speaker A: And it's the recognition that your. The people that you've worked with think you still got it. [00:21:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:22] Speaker A: And so I'm sure, just psychologically, I hope, you know, she was right, that that was worth a ton. [00:21:32] Speaker B: But if you have an opportunity to see it, I think it's on. I forgot maybe on the streamers. Has it. [00:21:39] Speaker A: It's easy enough to find. [00:21:42] Speaker B: I thought it was really well produced and well done. I almost sort of felt we should have done it. Why didn't we think of it? But hey. [00:21:55] Speaker A: You know, on. On to the next. [00:21:57] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:59] Speaker A: You are a member of the Academy. Yes. [00:22:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:22:03] Speaker A: A voting member of the Motion Picture Academy. [00:22:07] Speaker B: Don't get me started. [00:22:09] Speaker A: And you're. You're. Your big event is. Is about to come up. You. You. Have you voted yet for all the. [00:22:17] Speaker B: Well, the big event is today. It's my birthday. What. What event are you talking about? [00:22:23] Speaker A: The second big, Big biggest event. [00:22:26] Speaker B: No, no, I haven't voted yet. I'm not sure I'm going to. [00:22:30] Speaker A: Why is that? [00:22:32] Speaker B: Well, two reasons. There's very, There are very few movies that I've seen this year that I have any respect for or liked. I think in years past, they never, ever would have been nominated. I think it's politically correct to nominate them. And this goes back to a problem I've had with the Academy from way back when, that I feel that the Academy is really a political animal and really just reacts politically to what they think is in their best interest. And I just don't agree with it, nor have I ever. And so I don't have, I don't have much regard nor respect for the Academy. [00:23:11] Speaker A: Are there movies you feel especially do not belong there? [00:23:15] Speaker B: Well, I haven't really seen anything that really got me excited. I mean, I can't think of. There's probably one or two that I did. I did like and thought they were worthy, but most of them, I, most of them, I can't even get through. [00:23:31] Speaker A: Well, okay, there was Anora. [00:23:34] Speaker B: I haven't seen that one. [00:23:36] Speaker A: The Brutalist. [00:23:39] Speaker B: Right. I saw that. [00:23:42] Speaker A: I haven't seen that yet. But. [00:23:44] Speaker B: Well, you need to take, first of all, you need to take three days because it's a very long movie. [00:23:48] Speaker A: Three and a half hours. [00:23:49] Speaker B: So, so bring, bring food and bring supplies and, and bring a, bring a urine basket bottle. [00:23:56] Speaker A: Bring a catheter. [00:23:58] Speaker B: Yeah, you know, we saw it. I, I thought, I thought Adrien Brody did a really good job, but when all is said and done for three and a half hours, I was like, really? That's it. That's the movie. I was totally unimpressed with it. [00:24:17] Speaker A: A complete unknown. [00:24:19] Speaker B: I haven't seen that, but I really want to see that. I think Chalamet is going to win for that. [00:24:25] Speaker A: I, I have not seen that yet either. Now, do you get. They don't send screeners anymore. Do they send access to, to all the films? [00:24:33] Speaker B: Okay, yeah. [00:24:34] Speaker A: So you have access to everything. All right. Conclave. I have seen. How, How'd you feel about that? [00:24:41] Speaker B: Conclave? I stopped after the first 35 minutes, and people have said I should have stayed with it. And so I think I may go back to it, because I really was really looking forward to it. I thought, that's going to be the winner this year. But I, after 35 minutes, both my wife and I looked at each other and said, are you as bored as I am? And the answer was, let's go turn this off and get some ice cream. [00:25:08] Speaker A: You know, it's. [00:25:11] Speaker B: Did you like it? [00:25:16] Speaker A: Okay. I, I, I, I Wanna. I want to be delicate here because I don't want to ruin the ending. [00:25:25] Speaker B: Oh, you can ruin it. It's okay. I'll probably never say okay. [00:25:28] Speaker A: Oh, what a relief. Well, all right. It's in the way of. Of all the times to have a senior moment. The Chronicles. [00:25:39] Speaker B: So is it true that in the movie, Sister Mary is really Brother Mori? [00:25:44] Speaker A: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. That's. It's the whole thing. It's all on a. That kind of a plot twist, a he is a she. And that's. That's the whole thing. [00:25:55] Speaker B: I was being facetious. [00:25:57] Speaker A: No, that is the whole thing. [00:25:59] Speaker B: Wow. [00:26:00] Speaker A: And it's depending upon your willingness to. One, to buy that. [00:26:08] Speaker B: Right. [00:26:09] Speaker A: Two, to be satisfied by that and not go, all right, I see that. Okay. That's a clever plot twist. But wait, what? You know, it's. And so. [00:26:23] Speaker B: And why. I mean, is that the best you can do? Why. Why is that the pro. Why is that? [00:26:29] Speaker A: Because that was the whole. That's the contrivance. The whole thing is built on, hey, what if they picked a pope and it turned out he used to be a she? Okay. All right. You know, that's. That's an interesting way to do that, but what I just said in that sentence is more interesting than the movie. [00:26:45] Speaker B: Right. [00:26:46] Speaker A: You know, and that's. That's the problem. There's. Yeah, that's a whole lot of. That's 90 minutes you gotta suspend to keep the audience away from any sense of that that could possibly be. [00:27:04] Speaker B: What? Well, after 35 minutes, we were both bored. I mean, my wife and I just looked at each other and said, we're just bored. There's nothing. I don't care about anybody. I don't know what they're trying to accomplish. It just was. Maybe it was an ending. In search of a plot. [00:27:19] Speaker A: I think that's a perfect way to describe it. Dune part 2. The second part of the Chalamet Year of. Have you seen. [00:27:29] Speaker B: No, I don't. I don't. I never. I don't watch Dune. I saw the first one. I'm friendly with the director. I don't like. I think he's very talented with effects and everything else. I'm not so convinced he's such a good storyteller. His younger brother, I think, is a better storyteller. [00:27:48] Speaker A: Emilia Perez. [00:27:52] Speaker B: Yeah, that's another one. I got through about half of it, and I was like, what the fuck? [00:27:58] Speaker A: I. I somehow I. I'm not shocked that that is a movie that you did not care for. [00:28:02] Speaker B: Yeah, I just you know, it just seemed to go on and on and on about nothing. I don't know when it kicked in. It never kicked in for me. [00:28:15] Speaker A: It's. It's funny to see the. And they worked so hard on their ad, their. Their. Their award campaign and just got shot right in the. [00:28:28] Speaker B: You know what? Yeah. [00:28:33] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm still here. [00:28:37] Speaker B: I'm still here. [00:28:39] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's. That's. That's a title that's here as running for this year's Oscar race, Best Picture. Because I'm still here. [00:28:48] Speaker B: I may have seen it. I don't remember, but I. I'm just trying to think what it's about, who's in it, you know, who directed it. [00:28:53] Speaker A: It doesn't say here. This is just. I. I just have a list of the. The best picture. Hey, I didn't do that much research for this. Alas, we're. Hey, we're. We're throwing this together. Like old times, right, Nickel boys? [00:29:13] Speaker B: Which nickel boy, I did see, it was okay, but it's very slow. I mean, all of these movies this year, they're very slow. They're very tedious. They're very impressed with themselves. I think they're very indulgent. [00:29:33] Speaker A: The substance. [00:29:35] Speaker B: I saw the substance. My wife liked it more than I did. I liked it more after I saw it and I thought about it for two or three days, and then I really got. Wow. Yeah, it's interesting idea. A really interesting idea. So, yeah, that one haunted me for a while. And I think Demi Moore will get the Academy Award, and I think she deserves it because I think she'll get it because of the politics and her age, but I think she deserves it as well. [00:30:12] Speaker A: Wicked. [00:30:15] Speaker B: Wicked. Oh, yeah, that's another one. We saw half of it and I said, they've had one song. The Broadway play has 22 songs in it. What am I watching this? I want us to hear the songs, but I have to go back to it. My wife is saying we have to watch it, so. Especially since there's going to be part two next year. [00:30:37] Speaker A: Yeah, I imagine what they're doing is they parceled out the songs. Something like that. Is that what they're doing? Are they writing new songs? How are they doing? [00:30:46] Speaker B: No, no, no. It's songs from the show, supposedly. But. But, you know, the first 40 minutes, there's no song. There's one song and it goes on forever. And it's like, okay, stop. [00:30:57] Speaker A: I must say, I knew very little about Wicked other than that it was about the story of the Wicked Witch. And I was rather mesmerized by it. I, I enjoyed it start to finish. And I, I hate musicals. [00:31:14] Speaker B: Well, I love musicals and I hate musicals. Well, see, I love musicals. [00:31:18] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's why I'm surprised. [00:31:21] Speaker B: Yeah, I wanted to like it, but I, I just was like, oh, God. [00:31:26] Speaker A: You see, Maya, a good musical to me is Sweeney Todd. That's a good musical. [00:31:33] Speaker B: I don't like that one. [00:31:35] Speaker A: What's wrong with you? [00:31:36] Speaker B: And also Wicked without Dini Menzel. I don't get it. Why wasn't she in the movie? It's like I watched Camelot the other night as a movie and thought about Kennedy and all that and what it meant to me when I was younger. But then I thought, oh, what about. Why didn't they use Robert Goulet as Lancelot? They use this guy who, he's not that great a singer, and he's not that better looking than Robert Goulet. And Robert Goulet did it on Broadway and won a Tony Award for it and had all kinds of acclaim. And I just couldn't understand why they wouldn't put him in the movie. [00:32:23] Speaker A: As we both know, people in suits are strange. Yeah. [00:32:28] Speaker B: With Dina Menzel is that great success. And I don't understand why she wasn't in that movie. She was in the show, so why wasn't she in the movie? I don't get it. I don't get it. It pisses me off because she's so good. [00:32:42] Speaker A: Yeah. So you were unhappy with, with the movie On. On. On for political reasons. [00:32:50] Speaker B: Yeah. And also, I mean, they didn't use songs. They, they, you know, it just went on and on and on. I'm like sitting there going, what the hell is going on? When are they going to get to some music? [00:32:59] Speaker A: Well, it's kind of like they thinking that, okay, we're going to stretch this across three movies so we can stretch the story out, we can explain it. [00:33:07] Speaker B: But it's going to be over two movies, Right? Only there's only three. I think it's two. [00:33:13] Speaker A: Two or three. I, I, I, I, for some reason, I had three in my head, but yeah, hey, okay, so, so they're going to spread it across two movies. [00:33:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:33:20] Speaker A: All right, so, hey, two movies is twice the money. Right? [00:33:25] Speaker B: Right. And what do I know? It's done very well and it'll probably win some Academy Awards. But not from me. [00:33:35] Speaker A: Literally. Literally not from you. You know, it's, it's, it's kind of a cynical enterprise to turn that show. [00:33:45] Speaker B: Into two Movies, maybe. [00:33:48] Speaker A: And, and to. With, you know, the show that was successful, that's been running. How long has it been running? [00:33:54] Speaker B: 22 years. [00:33:55] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So obviously they're doing it right. How, how come when you turn it into a movie, it has to get bloated? [00:34:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:34:02] Speaker A: It has to become bigger, but not necessarily better. Is that what's wrong with the whole movie business that there's just no sense of proportion or scale anymore? That. [00:34:20] Speaker B: Well, I don't know if there was ever a sense of proportion. I mean, even when we were making little pictures which we thought were big pictures because they cost so much, I think we thought they were big pictures. I don't think the sensibility in terms of making money has changed all that much. I think the sensibility towards what they think they can sell has changed a bit. [00:34:46] Speaker A: Yeah, what they think they can sell. And, and the audience has changed in significant ways. [00:34:59] Speaker B: I mean, every, everything is sequel. I mean, you know, they're going back to movies they made. First they were doing it 30 years ago, then 20 years ago. Now they're doing movies that they made five and seven years ago and they're going, oh, let's make a sequel. Look at, look at what they did to Toby Hooper's movie Chainsaw Massacre when they redid that. Why would you do redo that? You redid that because, oh, you thought I could make more money and there's an audience out there for that. Let's do a remake and then all of a sudden let's do a remake of everything and it's safe because as an executive, you can't say to me, well, why'd you make a remake of that? It did well the first time. That's why we made it. [00:35:36] Speaker A: As we know, they're in the executive suites, they're all incredibly risk averse and everything is covering your ass. And so you can point to, well, it worked before, so hey, we figured it was going to work again. It's the easiest way to keep your job. [00:35:53] Speaker B: I've often said if they could do what we do, they would be doing it. They can't. So what do you do? Oh, you go into advertising. Oh, you go into management. Oh, you go into whatever it is you go into to, to give you some power and to give you some leverage into making movies or television or whatever the hell it is you want to make. [00:36:12] Speaker A: But all they ever do is stand in the way of the people who are trying to make the goddamn movies. It's really because you can't do. You're going to just stand in the way. Okay. But that is kind of how it shakes out. [00:36:24] Speaker B: Well, if our audience hasn't seen the story about Francis Ford making Godfather and how he was almost fired off the movie twice and how nobody trusted him or believed him or had any confidence in him until the movie was a huge hit. And then of course, they said, oh, we got to do two or three, four and five. But they only did two and three. [00:36:45] Speaker A: Well, three. Kind of. It kind of. [00:36:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:36:49] Speaker A: It, it just shat all over the, the deal. It was a little. Hey, but you know, that's unfortunately happen with, with creative people. They get all self indulgent and he got a little self indulgent there. But hey, one and two. Two especially put those two together. That is a bravura piece of. [00:37:11] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:37:11] Speaker A: Movie making. And. [00:37:14] Speaker B: But you. Can you imagine making Godfather one and having fights with Paramount and thinking you're going to be fired and on two occasions actually hearing that you are being fired? [00:37:26] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Robert Evans was running the studio there, right? Yeah, yeah. The Robert Evans is, is. He's dialing the phone, man. He's dialing the phone. [00:37:34] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, it. [00:37:38] Speaker A: Well, I mean, we've, we've been in that kind of a situation working for Joel. [00:37:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:37:44] Speaker A: Was really in that environment. We certainly understand what that kind of pressure cooker is like. It's utter madness. You're, you're working with people who are talented in their way, I suppose, but their egos run amok. [00:38:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:38:06] Speaker A: And they've got. And if you've, if, if that those egos run amok, have some kind of power attached to them. [00:38:15] Speaker B: Funny story about Bob Evans. Real quick, go for it. I don't know him. I know nothing about him. My phone rings. I answer the phone. Gil Adler speaking. It's Bob Evans. It's Bob Evans. Yeah, you know who I am? Is this the Bob Evans that used to run Paramount and it was a producer? Yeah, that's me. What are you calling me for? Well, I've heard a lot about you. You seem to have done some pretty decent work. And I just thought we should know each other and maybe we could meet. And I go, oh, okay. Where? He goes, well, could you come to my house? I go, okay. And it's off of Cold Water. I lived off of Cold Water. So he was further down the hill. So I go to the house. [00:39:05] Speaker A: He was further down the hill. [00:39:07] Speaker B: Yeah. Closer into Beverly Hills. I was more in the. [00:39:11] Speaker A: You, you, you were up higher on the hill. [00:39:13] Speaker B: Yeah. So I, I drive to his house. I parked the car, figuring, you know, they're going to throw me out, knock on the door. Man answers the, answers the door. And he said, are you Gil Adler? I said, I am. Oh, come right this way. He's in, he's in a meeting right now, but he'll be with you shortly. I said, okay. He said, would you like a drink? And I said, you have a Diet Coke? And he looks at me and he goes, no, no, no, I wasn't thinking that kind of a drink. Would you like a real drink? And I said, oh, you're having a. [00:39:46] Speaker A: Meeting with Bob Evans. Don't you understand? [00:39:47] Speaker B: Yeah, I said, okay, I'll have a scotch. So he gives me a scotch. [00:39:51] Speaker A: What time of day is this? [00:39:53] Speaker B: Oh, maybe 5:00, 4:00 in the afternoon. And so the door open, I'm sitting there, the door opens up and out walks a man who, I don't know. It's Bob Evans. And in front of him is. Oh, God, what's his name? He was a director and then he ran a company, Brett Ratner. [00:40:14] Speaker A: Oh, sure, sure, sure. [00:40:16] Speaker B: And we had just fired Brett Ratner off of Superman. I didn't. Warner Brothers did. So Brettner looks at me and he goes, what the fuck are you doing here? And I said, what are you doing here? And he goes, I'm a good friend of Bob Evans. He's my, he's like my buddy. I said, oh. And Evans said, looks at me and he goes, oh, you two guys know each other? And Brett Ratner, I, more for. More for effect than anything else, says, do we know each other? He just fucking fired me off a Superman. And I look at him and I go, I didn't fucking fire you off anything. Warner Brothers did that. I, I just started like three weeks ago. So we get through that and then he leaves and he tells Bob he shouldn't be meeting with me. And so Brett Ratner leaves and Bob comes over laughing, and he puts his arm around me, shakes my hand and he says, come on in. Come on into my bedroom and we'll talk. And I go, what? [00:41:16] Speaker A: Oh, Jesus Christ. [00:41:18] Speaker B: He goes, no, no, don't get excited. All my meetings are in the bedroom. I said, oh. And I follow him and we walk into the bedroom and he's. He's sitting on the bed and I'm sitting on a chair and we chatted for like, I don't know, half hour, 45 minutes, just about making movies and life and what I've done and what he's done. And then, and then he said, well, I guess that's it. I, I hope I'll see you again. And I said, sure. You know, any, anytime you're interested, just give me a holler. And I left. That was it. [00:41:55] Speaker A: Oh, but for the right piece of material. [00:41:58] Speaker B: Yeah. So. But he was, he was an elderly man by then. I mean, he was, he was not in his prime. He was sort of like. I think he was relatively retired and, you know, stayed in the house most of the time and stuff like that. [00:42:11] Speaker A: It took meetings on his bed. [00:42:12] Speaker B: Yeah. With people like me. [00:42:17] Speaker A: Still felt like he was connected. [00:42:19] Speaker B: At least Weinstein had the right sex. [00:42:24] Speaker A: At least. I, I've never heard that story before. This is, this now the whole conversation is, is more than worthwhile. It's. [00:42:35] Speaker B: I thought I had told you that a long time ago. [00:42:36] Speaker A: No, that might have been after. Because that might have been after we parted ways. [00:42:43] Speaker B: Maybe. [00:42:44] Speaker A: Yeah, maybe because then, you know, you, you would been in Warner Brothers. You would produce Superman. You had produced. [00:42:54] Speaker B: Valkyrie. [00:42:55] Speaker A: Yeah, Valkyrie. Yeah. So, you know, you had some real big, big movies. [00:42:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:42:59] Speaker A: On your, on your bio. So it would. Yes. A guy like Robert Evans would absolutely look at you. Hey, you ran franchise movies for one of the bigs. Come on. [00:43:10] Speaker B: And that's why I'm so excited, going back to when we first started talking about these two movies that I'm trying to get made, which. [00:43:17] Speaker A: Well done. Well done. [00:43:18] Speaker B: I'll just have to figure it out. I mean, it's going to take more time than I thought, but damn it, I just got to stay with it and figure it out. Which I'll do. [00:43:27] Speaker A: What. Okay, what does figuring it out. What might that entail. [00:43:36] Speaker B: Then? Which might mean I have to look at the script again and say, is there something in the script that he doesn't like or she doesn't. I mean, what, what can I make the script better? Is it this? What a studio. [00:43:51] Speaker A: What kind of actor or act. What kind of actors are you trying to land? I don't need to tell me names because that's. That probably is proprietary. [00:44:02] Speaker B: Actors that were making offers. Actors that were making offers from on the very low side, 2 million to 8 or 10 million. So substantial actors, you know, some of whom are offered a lot of stuff, some of whom have done a few things and they're about to pop and that. And that's why they're at the lower end of the spike pay scale, but really solid money and real money. Real money. So which is, which is probably most important than anything, do you suppose? [00:44:34] Speaker A: If, if the talent you wanted was aware of These offers and had a chance to actually read the material for themselves, that they would. That they jump aboard. [00:44:45] Speaker B: I don't know. I'd like to think so, but I don't know. And that's part of the problem. You don't know if the talent gets to read it or not. So, you know, it. [00:44:59] Speaker A: Is it the agents or the managers who are more in the way? [00:45:04] Speaker B: Well, neither in both. I mean, some of them are, you know, just in the way. We don't. And you don't know if the client has actually read it or not, because you get a call and they say it's a pass, but they don't tell you why it's a pass. It'd be nice if somebody said it's a pass, because I would appreciate that. Because then I could think about that and say, that's bullshit. Or I could go, aha, There's a problem with the character. There's a problem with the script. We got to fix it. [00:45:36] Speaker A: And really, you always have to wonder who read the script, or did they just read coverage? [00:45:42] Speaker B: Right. [00:45:42] Speaker A: What? [00:45:42] Speaker B: Right. [00:45:43] Speaker A: You know, and did the person. And if it's the coverage. Did the person reading the coverage really. Is that what we're down to? And. And what kind of day they were having? [00:45:53] Speaker B: Well, you would think if I'm offering some real money, which I was or am, you would think that would solicit. You know, supposedly they're supposed to, with a real offer, make that. Make the client aware of that, but you never know if they do or they don't. [00:46:12] Speaker A: Certainly no way to check their work. [00:46:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:46:18] Speaker A: So. So the year could. Could well be a great year if. If just this could unbottle. [00:46:28] Speaker B: Well, if I make it through the year, I consider that a great year. But it could be. It could be embellished a little bit. If I got one or both of these movies on its feet. Yeah, it would be really exciting. It'd be fun. And I think they're worthwhile. I think they would garner audiences. I think people would really like the two movies. I like the characters. [00:46:49] Speaker A: And you have good directors attached. [00:46:51] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:46:53] Speaker A: And good scripts and. [00:46:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:46:57] Speaker A: I don't know how you do it. [00:47:00] Speaker B: I don't know how I do it either. So far, I haven't done it. [00:47:04] Speaker A: I'm kind of with your friend, so he's asking, what do you do first? I'm asking, why do you do first? Yeah, well, only because. [00:47:15] Speaker B: Well, it's not like if I didn't like these two scripts as much as I like the two scripts, I wouldn't do it like these two scripts. I like the writing. I sort of discover this writer, put him on Apple. [00:47:36] Speaker A: So yeah, you know, if, if there was a reversal of circumstance and suddenly we could get someone interested in. Are you afraid I'd be madly in love with the TV business all over again. So I'm completely and totally full of shit. [00:47:53] Speaker B: Well, it's nice that you risk that. That's a healthy recognition at least. Most in our business don't want to recognize that. [00:48:06] Speaker A: But, you know, the way that my whole little podcast company is set up, the goal is really to sell every single thing we're doing as a TV show or a movie. That is kind of the point of the exercise. [00:48:17] Speaker B: But I believe you will. I believe you're on the right track and I think, I think you're right track and I think the things that you do are interesting. [00:48:28] Speaker A: I should update you on a couple of the odd little things that have happened because they're. It's crazy. It's crazy, but I'll do that. Outside of this, for our purposes here, we haven't had a chance to catch up properly in a while and this seemed like the perfect opportunity on your damned birthday. [00:48:49] Speaker B: Well, thank you for, for that and thank you for remembering my birthday and. Yeah, onward and upward. [00:48:57] Speaker A: So with that, hey, happy birthday. And thank you everyone, as always, for checking in with us. We'll see you next time. The how not to Make a Movie podcast is executive produced by me, Alan Katz, by Gil Adler and by Jason Stein. Our artwork was done by the amazing Jody Web Webster and Jason. Jody, along with Mando, are all the hosts of the fun and informative Dads from the Crypt podcast. Follow them for what my old pal the Crypt Keeper would have called terrorific crypt content.