Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: This podcast is a collaboration between Costard and Touchstone Productions and the Dads from the Crypt podcast.
See?
[00:00:07] Speaker B: What did I say? The Winchester's just over there. Over where?
[00:00:10] Speaker A: Over there.
Just over there. Over the 20 garden fences.
[00:00:14] Speaker B: What's the matter, David?
I'm taking a shortcut before.
[00:00:34] Speaker A: Hello and welcome to another episode of the how not to make a movie podcast. I'm Alan Katz. Gil will join us shortly. Can I make a full on confession? I am a huge fan of Edgar Wright and Sean and hot fuzz and end of the world. In the whole Coronetto trilogy, you can see and hear and feel Edgar Wright's incredible passion for movies and movie making in every single frame he shoots. And the craft. His craft is off the charts and meticulous. His taste for horror comedy makes him a compadre in a very small world. If Edgar Wright had been available when we made tales from the crypt, we would have hired him without a doubt, in a flash. His sensibilities and ours were almost completely identical. Clark Collis, our guest on this episode, has been writing about the film and tv business for a long time. Gil and I first encountered him when he interviewed us for a piece he wrote for Entertainment Weekly, for whom he worked at the time. About this podcast's first season, Clark called us the best film podcast of 2022.
That was quite a generous compliment. What a boost, too. When we started the podcasts second season, we invited Clark to join us for an episode to talk about entertainment journalism. Clark felt a little uncomfortable about discussing the hand that fed him, and so it never happened. But not too long ago, Clark quit working at EW. He went freelance. And now that he was free to talk, we wanted to talk about something we knew Clark was passionate about. Edgar writes Shaun of the dead. We knew that he was passionate because he wrote a whole book about its making. You got red on you if you like movie making, and especially if you like the movie Shaun of the Dead. Clark's book belongs in your collection. We'll get to the book. Join us, please, as we celebrate Shaun of the dead with our very good friend Clark Collis. Good evening to you, Clark. Isn't it evening? It's like it is.
[00:02:39] Speaker B: It's 1 minute past seven here, but that's fine.
[00:02:43] Speaker C: How are you doing?
[00:02:44] Speaker B: I spent to give you a glimpse into my life, I spent 3 hours this afternoon. I went to see Furiosa a couple of weeks ago and then got a speeding ticket, appropriately enough, doing 27 miles an hour in a 20 miles an hour zone. So not quite road warrior. Stuff. But I had to attend a three hour don't speed seminar this afternoon.
[00:03:09] Speaker A: In LA.
There are all kinds of different ways you can get out of a speeding ticket by going to traffic school.
And there are all kinds of traffic schools. There's one that was the improv used to run one, I don't know if they still do, but these were stand ups doing as your teacher, and I had to do that once and it was the best way to have done that. At least it was entertaining.
It is good to see you. It's lovely to see you and thank you so much for doing this.
[00:03:47] Speaker B: My absolute pleasure.
[00:03:50] Speaker A: I must say, I'm a fan.
I have the all the way through with and I love having the mark.
[00:04:02] Speaker C: Hold it up a little higher so our audience can see it really well.
[00:04:05] Speaker A: Oh, hold on. You can find you've got right on you at Amazon and at Goodreads.
We wanted to have a conversation with you on this podcast a while ago.
Excuse me. While you were still working at Entertainment Weekly, but you felt it was not appropriate because at that point you were a journalist. Understood. But now you're just a working stiff like the rest of us.
[00:04:29] Speaker B: Well, I'm actually no longer a working stiff. I'm at that. I took a package, so I'm at that fabulous point where I don't have a job, but they're still paying me to do it. So I'm very much enjoying not having a job, but as my, but I feel like come September, I think I may have a different point of view then.
[00:04:55] Speaker A: You get the joys of being a working stiff without the economic terror. Yes, for the time being. Hey, savor this. You're living the best of both worlds. This is a wonderful, I'm so pleased for you.
But you can talk a little shop now. Whereas I think before you were reluctant to.
Before we get to all of that, I think your one, I'm guessing that one of the things that just why you had to do your, you've got read on you. The whole making of Shaun of the Dead is because you and Edgar Wright come from the same place.
[00:05:37] Speaker B: Yes. It's a very strange story.
Without sounding egomaniacal. I do kind of think I was born to write that book. Not because I'm sort of uniquely talented, not because I'm sort of uniquely equipped from a talent point of view, but Edgar Wright, who's the director of Shaun of the Dead, grew up in a small town, technically a city because it's got a cathedral, but really quite a.
[00:06:04] Speaker A: Small town called Welles, England's smallest city. It is, except for the city of London itself, but that's part of a larger thing. So it's really legitimately Welles english smallest city.
[00:06:17] Speaker B: Yes, it has. It's a very small city. And in fact, Edgar shot his first movie after Shaun of the Dead, which is the comedy, the cop comedy hot fuzz. He shot that well.
He had to CGI out the massive cathedral, which Wells has. But hot fuzz is very much set in a town like Wells, which is obsessed with the annual flower competition and is in many ways, a lovely place to grow up, but also, in many ways, could not be more distant from the entertainment industry, I guess, which, growing up is something I was fascinated by. I should point out that I didn't know Edgar when I was growing up. He's a few years younger than me.
But when I started working for a film magazine in the nineties, Edgar, who was very young at that point, released a film called a Fistful of Fingers, which is sort of a spoof western, I don't think. I mean, it was made by. He was 20 at the time, I think maybe 21. He had no money. It's certainly got some good jokes in it, but I don't think he would mind and probably admit himself that it looks like it's been made by a 20 year old with no money.
[00:07:38] Speaker A: Can any of us look back at our work when we did, before we became seasoned without a little bit of dread? Oh, please.
[00:07:46] Speaker B: Yes, absolutely. But while I was working at a film magazine, when that came out, it played for a week at the Prince Charles cinema, and I'm guessing I must have received a fax.
Younger listeners might care to Google what that is. But I must have gotten a fax saying that this 21 year old filmmaker from Wells had made a film. And that set a bell off in my head, and I sent one of my colleagues off to interview him. And then he was always somebody that I kept an eye on. He spent the next few years directing tv comedies, basically, most notably a sitcom called Spaced, which starred Simon Pegg.
And by that point, he had become. He. Both he and Simon had become obsessed with zombie films, and independently, I had become obsessed with zombie films, which at the time. I mean, now, of course, zombies are everywhere, but at the time was very much a horror subgenre that was full hardcore horror fans.
[00:08:56] Speaker A: George Romero fans.
[00:08:58] Speaker B: Yes, George Romero fans. And in fact. But then he had not. George Romero had not released the zombie film since Day of the Dead in the mid eighties. And there really hadn't been a zombie film.
[00:09:11] Speaker A: At that point, what more was there to say on the subject? You know, it had been eaten.
[00:09:17] Speaker B: Yes, absolutely. It had bitten off its own toes.
But then they did an episode, Edgar and Simon. Jessica Hines, who co wrote the sitcom space with Simon, did this episode where Simon Pegg's character did so much speed, took so much amphetamines, that he began to hallucinate that there were zombies everywhere.
[00:09:43] Speaker A: You want a piece of me?
Come get some.
Heads up.
[00:10:04] Speaker B: Oh, shit.
Hiya. Don't sneak up on me like that.
What a cup of tea. Legend has it that on the way back from shooting that particular sequence, Edgar and Simon were like, let's make a horror movie. And then after many trials and tribulations, they did make short of the dead, which I saw at the time and very much enjoyed, and then fell in love with hot fuzz and the world's End and Edgar's other films. And then for the 10th anniversary, did a kind of oral history of Shaun of the dead for Entertainment Weekly. And so by this point, I'd interviewed Edgar a few times and we had the Wells connection and we had the zombie connection, and I did an oral history where, you know, I interviewed Edgar and his producer, Naira Park, Nick Frost, Simon Pegg, Kate Ashfield, who plays the female lead, Shawn's girlfriend.
And I think that was about it. I'd sort of stolen some. I'd gotten an interview with Bill Nye about a film I wasn't interested in particularly, and then shot him some Shaun of the dead questions, which he was delighted to answer because he's a delightful person.
And then just before COVID I was looking around. To be honest, it was somewhat mercenary. I wanted to write a book. I thought writing a book about a film would be quite easy. But you'd be surprised how many books, how many films of note have books already written about them. But I knew there wasn't a book about Shaun of the dead. And I thought, well, I've done like six interviews. If I do six more, I could write like a sort of quick 150 page book.
But then I wound up doing 60 or 70 interviews and writing a 450 page book, which is probably a bit too long, to be honest with you.
[00:12:03] Speaker A: It is.
The detail is extraordinary, really.
You put us at every single moment along the way and there are terrific anecdotes because of that attention to detail. If he had pulled the camera back to a few thousand feet, I think you'd have lost some of the best of the best details. So I would argue that in our current podcast culture, more is more, perhaps.
[00:12:40] Speaker B: Perhaps.
[00:12:41] Speaker A: And the audience does want more.
[00:12:44] Speaker B: And what was, I mean, one of the reasons it's so long is because a lot of the people who worked on it, it was sort of their first movie or very early in their career.
And I think that's the fun stuff. I mean, I mean, you know, you know, if Steven Spielberg decides to make a movie, what's the story there? And I'm sure that, you know, and that's, and that's being, that's being obtuse and stupid because obviously there will be lots of stories, but essentially it's not that hard.
I'm sure maybe his producers would disagree, but it's not really that hard for him to get the money to make a movie. Whereas Edgar and Simon spent four years trying to get, I think it's $6 million equivalent to $6 million to make this film.
[00:13:31] Speaker A: You are sitting with independent filmmakers who have. This is, this is. Yes, yes, yes, yes. This is their, which is why I watching not just other independent filmmakers with outside, not just an outside the box idea, but an outside the box way of doing that idea.
How do you sell that to money?
It's really, really hard because money is risk averse, understandably.
[00:13:59] Speaker B: So.
[00:13:59] Speaker A: It doesn't want to lose its money. So it's hoping those details are really fascinating because what makes Edgar Wright really fascinating as a filmmaker? I think he is part of this young, dynamic group of filmmakers who have this visceral, kinetic style. And as you detail, really, they take a lot of that from the Coen brothers raising Arizona. Big influence, Scorsese.
So there is this, this sense of filmmaking from within and.
[00:14:46] Speaker B: Absolutely, yeah, yeah.
[00:14:49] Speaker A: I share your passion for this filmmaker, and that's really why I so wanted to have this conversation, because really it is. There's something about his craft that, hey, look at the impact it's had on other filmmakers.
[00:15:09] Speaker B: Absolutely. No, absolutely. And he truly is. He truly is somebody who, like, loves film. If you follow him on instagram, then periodically he will just photograph the pile of dvd's that he's watched recently. And I just think, how on earth do you have the time to, you know, in the midst of developing, you know, all sorts of other projects, how on earth do you have the time to, to watch all this stuff? And I think that's something he's gotten. I mean, he is very friendly. He's friendly with both Tarantino and Scorsese, who are very similar in that fashion. And I think that, I mean, I think Edgar, I mean, Edgar knew a lot about film anyway, but has made it his business to really fill in the gaps of his film knowledge over the past 15 years and continues to do so.
[00:15:59] Speaker A: You include in the book a number of storyboards, which are fantastic because it gives you a sense, really. All right, never mind how you sell how he wants to do this to executives who have no imagination. All right, how do you sell the idea in your head to other craftspeople on whose craft you will rely upon to manifest this thing in here, in reality, outside your head? And so, yes, and he did his own storyboards, and you get a sense, even it's looking at the storyboards, how kinetic everything is that really, we're always moving and swooping.
You tell some, there's some fascinating anecdotes about working with, you know, the. Well, the crew, but especially his DP, David Dunlap, in order to get a lot of those pieces. And it's really. It's all about transitions. It's all about transitions, but all those things require piece. I mean, so many pieces of film that. That you gotta have in. In your pocket in order to make all these things cut together. And you also describe beautifully how necessary it is for it to be choreographed and exactly, and repeated exactly the same way time and again with variant, with these variations. For the gag to play, it's got to be exactly right. And the first time that you're doing it, I'm selling your book to you.
[00:17:33] Speaker B: I'm going to buy a copy after this.
[00:17:36] Speaker A: You describe it, and really, I'm selling this to our audience. This is what I learned from reading the book over the past bunch of days before we were going to have this conversation. You know, it requires a lot of extra time to shoot all these pieces. And it's so hard the first time through for, especially the DP, the feeling was, this is taking so much extra time. Why are we doing it this way? Why not just shoot master and coverage? Let's get on with our day. But he had a very precise vision of the movie he was making. In his head. He's like Elliot Silverstein that way, Gil. I mean, really, it was pre cut in a lot of ways in his head. And if he diverged from that in any way, a whole lot of pieces were not going to work.
And after the first time, when suddenly everyone sees Sean of the dead, when you go to make hot fuzz, everyone's a little bit more forgiving.
You go, oh, oh, I see why we had to shoot that five times on a very hot stage at ealing on, you know, suddenly, all right, you might forget some of the discomfort because you understand the artistry that he was serving.
I thought you did a great job.
[00:19:04] Speaker B: Well, thank you. And this was. I think Edgar realized that. I mean, when he was.
When his first film was released, a fistful of fingers, he had a horrible realization. I think it came out the same week as a bond movie, possibly Goldeneye. And he had a horrible realization that although whatever this film was, that although this other film cost, like, I don't know, $120 million and his film cost $50,000, that they would be judged in the same way, essentially, that a review. Because it was released nationally in the sense that it was released in a cinema. It wasn't released nationally. It was released in one cinema. But that then triggered reviews in national newspapers.
And I don't think it had occurred to him. I don't want to speak very good, but I think it occurred to him that, like, a reviewer would go and see a Bond movie wonder in the morning, and then go and see his film in the afternoon and would judge them the same. You know what I mean? They would not give a fistful of fingers an easy ride just because it had clearly not been made for much money by an unknown director. And so when he. I. I think he realized that kind of. He'd been given a second chance, or had created the second chance for himself to make a first movie, to a degree. And indeed, when he would do interviews about Shaun of the dead and interviewers said that it was his first movie, he wouldn't correct them. Like, he's not ashamed of his first film, but it's not bringing it up in conversation. And so he was absolutely determined to get things right. And they had been offered enough money to do a four week shoot for Shaun of the dad, I think. But he realized that they would need a six week shoot, or maybe it was a six week shoot, and he realized he needed an eight week shoot, but he just knew that what he was having to pay, what he needed the money for, was the time to do all the things he needed to do.
And was, you know, as you say, he. He and his brother Oscar actually did the storyboards.
This was the worst part of this whole process, writing a book. I mean, mostly I loved writing the book, but there was a moment when we'd done the edits and it had been proofed and it was ready, and it was now about to be printed in China because it's got a fancy cover with a silver embossed stuff, which.
[00:21:48] Speaker A: Taka cover.
[00:21:49] Speaker B: Yes. My publisher insisted that it looked nice. Which, see, being a writer, I'm just like, you can just print this on a four and put a staple through it. You can sell it like that because of the glory of my words. But my publisher insisted that it actually looked nice as well. And I have to say, it is a very nice looking book, but I had to be printed in China during COVID And so my publisher was like, oh, you know, so it's about to be published in China. You know, we'll get copies, you know, in four weeks or whatever.
[00:22:19] Speaker A: Slow boat. Slow boat to.
Oh, my God.
[00:22:24] Speaker B: And then Rolling Stone. So we'd agreed to do a sort of preview with Rolling Stone online, which included some stuff about the book and Edgar's storyboards. And one of the reasons Edgar. I mean, it was very nice for him to let us include his storyboards, but one of the reasons he wanted to include the storyboards, which are beautiful, was to show that he knew what he was doing right from the start. You know what I mean? None of this was, like, seat of the pan stuff, that this had been his plan all along, because the storyboards, you know, match the finished film exactly.
So Edgar's team, or the, you know, the. We had been sent these storyboards and put them in the book, sent the files off to China, and then rolling stone run this article with the storyboards. And then Edgar emails me saying, these are the wrong storyboards. Like, these are, like, early drafts, you know? I mean, there were storyboards by him of Shaun of the dead, but. And then he sent us the ones, you know, the much better ones, which really were works of beauty. And he was like, well, you need to swap this out. You know? I mean, he asked. You know, he wasn't being rude, but he was. He'd been so insistent, quite rightly, that we published, like, these lovely, beautiful storyboards.
[00:23:51] Speaker A: And then he said, you didn't need another slow boat. Right, right.
[00:23:56] Speaker B: But he's just like, well, you're gonna, you know, please, you know, you need to switch them out. But in my mind, for all I know, because my publisher had said, like, three days later, they're printing a book, and I'm going to bed being like, how long does it take to print a book? For all I know, these things are printed. For all I know, these things are now sitting on a pallet in.
[00:24:16] Speaker A: There's magic. Magic makes them happen.
[00:24:19] Speaker B: I thought most of you, that wasn't the case. That was. That was one of the worst night's sleep I've ever had, I have to say.
[00:24:27] Speaker C: I thought you were going to say that the first version of the book that you saw to proofread when it came back from China was in Mandarin.
[00:24:36] Speaker B: Well, I mean, it's a big. I have to say, it's a big market.
I don't know how popular Shaun of the Dead is there, but it is a big market. But mercifully, the book had not been printed, so it worked out all right. So now if you buy the book, you get to see Edgar and Oscar's fantastic finished storyboards.
[00:24:54] Speaker A: You had your own horror story there.
[00:24:57] Speaker B: It was terrible. It was absolutely terrible. Still, it all worked out all right.
[00:25:00] Speaker C: But it explains Alan a little bit why Flock wanted to talk to us about how not to make a movie.
[00:25:07] Speaker A: And if we really knew what we were talking about.
[00:25:11] Speaker B: But it is interesting because even.
Because in a sense, this book is how to make a movie. I mean, that wasn't my intention, but that wasn't my intention at all. I just wanted to tell an interesting story. But subsequently, you know, people. You know, I've heard people using it as a teaching tool and, you know, and I guess it does walk you through.
It does walk you through what everybody does on a film. Although I have to say there are still some positions. What was interesting was I would talk to, like, the first ad and I would say, well, what's. I would talk to the line producer and I would say, could you explain to me what your job is? And he says, well, yes.
You know, people have a lot of crazy ideas. And then I have to sort it out. Basically. I'd be like, oh, okay. Well, let's go. And then I would talk to the first.
[00:26:03] Speaker A: Before we move on, Gil, what does a line guy do?
[00:26:06] Speaker C: Well, I've been asked that so many times over the years and I finally came up with what I thought was a reasonable explanation that was quick and delicious. And what I would say to people was, well, think of me on a good day as a psychologist and on a bad day, think of me as a psychiatrist.
And they sort of let it sink in for a little bit and they go, oh, I kind of get it.
[00:26:31] Speaker B: There seemed to be. And I guess they're all right, but there seem to be three or four people with completely different job titles, with the same job, which was taking a lot of confusing nonsense that other people said and actually actioning it, which I. Which I guess is true in different areas of a film.
But no, I guess it does explain how to make a movie. Except the caveat to me is it explains it as well. Like you've also got to be Edgar Wright, you know what I mean? Or you've got to be Edgar Wright and Simon Pegg writing it. And that is much easier said than done.
[00:27:12] Speaker A: Sure.
One of the other parts of the book that I really enjoyed was talking about just working on the Ealing studio lot because we spent the last season of tales from the crypt on the Ealing studio lot. So there you point out the great comedy shot there, kind hearts and coronets, the Lavender Hill Mob and 1955, the Lady Killers, which you point out is very much like Shaun of the Dead combined. These two movies combined mirth with the macabre.
And that's perfectly put because that really is.
Yeah, that's also tells from the crypt.
[00:27:59] Speaker B: That is absolutely right. Yeah.
[00:28:01] Speaker A: And it, again, is why it just all hooks together.
That was exactly that stew that we were always looking for, really, where murder and mayhem and Mirth make this lovely gooey confection.
[00:28:24] Speaker B: Well, I mean, that's what I find fascinating about the history of you two good gentlemen is that people talk about horror comedy being possibly the hardest genre to work in. And you guys were having to do it from a standing start, however many times a year.
And I just think that just boggles my mind, really.
[00:28:50] Speaker C: It boggled our minds as well.
[00:28:52] Speaker A: Yeah. Look at this now.
Just a bunch of bags of boggled minds.
You also pointed out some of the people that you interviewed pointed out that the history of the complex, that being healing studios, was more impressive than some of its facilities, which. Absolutely true. Absolutely true.
[00:29:16] Speaker B: I think. I believe it may have been remodeled after Shaun of the dead. I think it may have been sort of modernized and improved. I'm not like it does sound, you know, this was.
This was shot during a hot summer and they spent a heat wave.
[00:29:40] Speaker A: It was 38.5 degrees celsius on the 10 August that year.
[00:29:46] Speaker B: And they spent the first half of the shoot shooting on locations, which, as I'm sure you folks know better than me, come with its own problems. But then there were three or four weeks basically shooting, uh, in. In the fake pub that they built, uh, at Ealing Studios. And things got pretty, uh, over 100.
[00:30:08] Speaker A: Degrees fahrenheit on that set.
[00:30:11] Speaker B: Yeah. And, and also because you had a lot of people playing zombies, um, fans of the sitcom that Edgar and Simon and Nick and Jessica had made space.
Fans of that show played zombies in the movie. And I think for legal purposes, they were. They were paid like a pound a day, but essentially did it for free.
But they sort of played zombies for weeks on end in this a lot.
[00:30:38] Speaker A: Of those people were fans of the series that Edgar and Simon had done. So they were happy to be soaking it up.
[00:30:49] Speaker B: I think they were happy to be soaking it up. And then they were happy when they realized that the beer, that the fake beer that they served at the Winchester was actually real beer, because as the production.
As the production designer told me, it might as well be real beer because beer looks like beer on camera. So it was as cheap to have beer as anything else. And there were stories about.
[00:31:15] Speaker A: I cannot see either one of us thinking like that, Gil.
[00:31:21] Speaker B: Apparently, sometimes the people playing zombies would stay behind after work. And I think it was the producer, naira, told me that definitely one set of zombies had sex on the. On the pool table. She was sure, at some point in the. In the proceedings. So things did get heated in all sorts of ways. Yeah, well, the funny thing about that was that.
So, I mean, what are the weird tidbits about Shaun of the dead is that they did reshoots. And two of the zombies playing reshoot, two of the people portraying zombies in the reshoots were two friends of Edgar's, one of whom is Corinne Hardy, who went on to direct the nun, which I believe is the most successful entry in the conjuring universe franchise. And the other of whom is Joe Cornishead, who made the film attack the Block, which is a fantastic alien invasion movie. And I visited the set of Joe Cornish's next movie, which was the kid who would be king.
And that was shot at Ealing. And the fascinating thing about that was that Naira park, who produced Shaun of the Dead, also produced the kid who would be king and sort of gave me a guided tour of Ealing, pointing. She would be like, oh, yeah, this is where that happened. And this is where Edgar was in a particularly bad mood that day or something.
And so that was kind of fascinating to see. And it was interesting because, yes, Ealing has this incredible history, but by that point, Shaun of the dead had sort of been added to the history. And I was kind of getting an insight into that.
[00:33:12] Speaker A: Oh, for sure. Oh, gosh. Yeah, no, it was. It was a fascinating place to walk around as. Let me. The words that were used lived in and shabby.
Yes, I'm sure.
[00:33:26] Speaker B: I really hope there were some people I did not send copies of the book to just because I felt they didn't need to read it. And I don't think it would made that day. And the owners of the studio were definitely.
[00:33:39] Speaker C: Well, it was shabby when we were there, too.
[00:33:41] Speaker A: But. But it's but it's true. It's just so true. It was.
And. And yet that was a part of its charm.
It was a part of its charm. Yes. I'll be sure to be offended.
[00:33:57] Speaker B: Well, I'm always fascinated with. Because England particularly, has been so busy. I don't know what it's like this year, but over the last 20 years has been so busy with studios that they've kind of run out of studios. You know, there's like, sort of three or four big studios. And I would go on set visits to sort of distant parts of London to see, like, a big marvel movie being shot. And I would be like, wait, where are we? What's going on here? And it's not, you know, and the finished movie would look spectacular. But, yeah, where they were shooting, it was, at times could be, you know, crumbling, to say the least.
[00:34:35] Speaker A: Going back to the movie itself, one of the things that makes it so, it just clicks. It's got an emotional core.
[00:34:48] Speaker B: Yes, it does.
[00:34:49] Speaker A: A real emotional core. When. When Sean's mom.
They reveal that Shawn's mom has been hiding the fact that she got bitten. There's a chunk taken out of her arm. Mom, what's wrong?
[00:35:00] Speaker B: I didn't want to be a bother.
Mom, I don't understand.
The man in his pajamas. I didn't want to say anything. I thought you'd be upset. No.
[00:35:14] Speaker A: And then when Barbara dies, it's a. It's Gen. It's a genuinely emotional moment in the film. But it was actually because it was at the end of the shoot and it was fucking hot in there. It was a genuinely emotional moment on the set.
[00:35:31] Speaker B: It's been a funny sort of day, hasn't it?
Oh, no, no, no. Come on. Come on. Stop it. Stop it, stop it.
[00:35:39] Speaker A: Come on.
[00:35:40] Speaker B: Please don't come.
[00:35:53] Speaker A: What are you doing?
[00:35:54] Speaker B: We have to deal with her, for Christ's sake. She's gonna come back. She's not gonna. Well, she'll change. She's my mum. She's a zombie. Don't say that.
Move aside. I'm gonna count to 3123. Don't point that gun at my mom. The actress's name playing Sean's mom, uh, is Penelope Wilton, who, in Britain, if you're of a certain age, like myself, you just grew up watching Penelope Wilton playing mothers on tv, you know, not to take anything away. I mean, she's been great in all number of things and is, in fact, now Dame Penelope Wilton, I believe.
But she was on a couple of shows where she played, you know, a beloved maternal figure and thus, from a brit's point of view, to see.
And in shore of the dead, she ends up playing a very similar figure.
[00:36:59] Speaker A: She wasn't the first choice, though, that Penelope was the second choice.
[00:37:04] Speaker B: They wrote it with her in mind and then she turned it down for the reason that they were turned down repeatedly over time by financiers and cast members, because, you know, they didn't want to. Penelope Wilton did not want to be in a zombie movie directed by someone she'd never heard of, would be my guess.
[00:37:24] Speaker A: But didn't they offer it to Helen Mirren first, then because it was produced.
[00:37:28] Speaker B: By working title, who had produced four weddings and a funeral and had just produced love, actually and had great success by casting up. That was the phrase that was used, casting up. So let's. And it's. I mean, it's barely a policy. It's what most studios do automatically, which is to try to find the most famous person, or at least a famous person to be in your movie. So in the case of working title, it was usually Hugh Grant and, you know, the biggest american actress they could fight. And so with Shaun of the dead, the original cast that they wanted, which was Simon Pegg, who was somewhat. Well, somewhat known at the time, but as a tv star, and Nick Frost, who wasn't known at all, really, and he'd been in space, but was Simon Pegg's roommate. And Edgar and Simon in particular, thought that Nick Frost was the funniest person they knew. But at the time, Nick Frost was also a waiter at a mexican restaurant, which wasn't anything that was going to make working title thrilled. So working title said, why don't you. Well, they suggested, get Bill Nye because they just made love, actually, and knew that Bill Nye, who'd been kicking around for two decades, really, without becoming much of a name, was about to become a name because they'd seen love actually, which is about to come out.
And why don't you. They said, why don't you approach Helen Mirren to play Sean's mother?
And so they approached Helen Mirren. And Helen Mirren apparently sent a note back saying she wasn't interested in the role of Shawn's mother, but she might consider playing what became the Nick Frost role. She wanted to play Simon Pegg's drug dealing roommate. And when they asked why, she said, because it's the funny part. And Edgar told me, well, she's not wrong. It is the funny part. But they weren't about. And I think I was talking to the film's casting agent who said, well, really, that was just a nice way of Helen Mirren saying no to the project without actually having to say no.
And they also approached Kate Winslet to play the role of the role that Kate Ashfield ultimately played. And Kate Winslow, by that point had made Titanic was a huge star and she passed.
And then they went back to Penelope Wilton and took her out for tea. They said, let us go out for tea with Penelope Wilton.
And they did and convinced her to do it. So with the exception of Bill Nye, they pretty much ended up with the cast that they wanted, which I think, in the end, obviously worked very well for them.
[00:40:22] Speaker A: Extraordinarily well. They. Yeah. What a wonderful combination of just the right prose with just the right experience. And really, Penelope Wilton is ideal cast.
[00:40:35] Speaker B: Yes, she is absolutely perfect. And the scene in which her.
[00:40:39] Speaker A: That's why when she dies, it's so much more powerful because it's not just the character. There's a whole concept.
[00:40:47] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:40:47] Speaker A: And it's. But that's why there are things in this movie that are just extraordinary. Yeah. Of course. This movie deserves its own damn book.
It's not even a question, Nick. Prose summation of the experience.
It was his reaction to the premiere at Leicester Square, kind of. I just summed it up perfectly.
I'm going to quote him directly here. You quoting him. I loved it. I loved it. I was just so proud that we'd done something amazing. We brought Crouch end to a standstill and we had a jag in it and Bill drink Bill Nye and there was fucking tons of blood and Dylan got pulled through a window and disemboweled. I just loved it. I was so proud.
I am still so proud.
Yeah.
[00:41:40] Speaker B: And that sort of sums up, I think, what makes the film different and why I wanted to write it was, as I said, I'm interested. It's always more interesting to talk to people who are scrambling to get an early project together.
But in this particular case, it was just a very unique kind of film because Simon Pegg and Nick Frost were living together and they would spend their time, you know, playing video games and then talking about what would happen, what they would. Their plans for a zombie apocalypse. You know, if the zomb, the zombie apocalypse happened, what are they going to do? And they had these quite elaborate plans about running over the roofs of London where they lived. And I guess there was a very rare.
There was a gun store of some description in their neighborhood, which is quite rare for the UK. And then they were going to go maybe to the. To their local pub, which the pub from children of the dead is very much based on. And then I think the plan was to go to a football stadium, a soccer stadium, and try to raise and turn it into a farm of some description.
But this is what they would talk about.
And then that became a film starring them in some ways playing. I mean, I think Simon said that he had been, but that both he and Nick Frost had spent time being Sean and Ed at various points. So it's not like they were playing themselves.
But the idea that this sort of discussion about zombie movies and a possible zombie apocalypse should then become a film starring the people who were roommates and they're playing roommates in the film, I mean, it's just weird. It sounds like something children do. I don't mean. I mean children in the sense of young people with still childlike innocence. It's like, hey, this could be a.
[00:43:34] Speaker A: Movie, you know, on screen chemistry. And the on screen chemistry between Nick and Simon is remarkable because they have a bond that's beyond the camera.
They have been literal roommates, and they. And, you know, there's a certain way that you move and that your whole vocabulary and there's a shorthand in every way, shape and form. And so when they're on, you know, Gil and I, we've cast a lot of actors, but I can speak for myself. I never cast an actor to act, not for film. It's the last thing we want you to do on the film, because the camera will see you acting on film. Actors need to be. That's just who they are, as honestly as they possibly can. And it's the actors who are most. Who are best at just revealing. There's something about their naked selves who are really the ones that we connect with the most. And the bond between Simon and Nick is so genuine and so authentic. Well, that's what plays, and that's what makes so much of hot fuzz work.
Especially.
It's this back and forth between them. Yeah. You could see. Yeah, that one. They could slouch from one into the other and then back again like amorphous blob of Brohood.
[00:45:05] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's just so funny that, I mean, I think, you know, growing up, we all had friends and you would say, oh, you should be. You're funny. You should be on tv, or you should be in films. And of course, they should not. You know, and, um, you know, for Simon Pegg to say, my friend Nick is the funniest person I know. My friend Nick, who, you know, is currently serving, is currently serving patrons at a mexican restaurant. Is, um.
[00:45:36] Speaker A: Chiquita. Was it called Chiquito? Chiquita?
[00:45:40] Speaker B: Yes, Chiquito. Yeah. He was kind of where he honed his comedy talent because he. He entertained. You know, if you get an entertaining waiter, you're going to tip them more. And so. And so he.
[00:45:51] Speaker A: He worked there for how long?
[00:45:55] Speaker B: A while?
[00:45:56] Speaker A: Five years. I think.
[00:46:01] Speaker B: He was in the restaurant industry for a while. And I believe he went back. I mean, he did work in various restaurants, I think. And I think even after Shaun of the dead, certainly after space, but maybe even after Shaun of the dead, he went back to waitering, partly because he didn't realize he had to pay tax on his earnings from. From Sean, which I don't think. I don't think was a. I don't think any of those folks made a fantastic money out of that film, as people tend not to do for their first film. But whatever it was, he didn't realize he had to pay tax. And then.
[00:46:35] Speaker A: But then when it puts you in debt, when your job puts you in debt, that kind of sucks.
[00:46:39] Speaker B: Yeah. So, yeah, he had very little experience at all, really. Whereas Simon had been a stand up and had appeared in quite a lot of tv by the time they'd done quite a lot of. It was quite experienced by the time Shaun came along. But yet, I mean, given that disparity of experience, it is amazing how well they work together on screen by the book, everybody.
[00:47:06] Speaker A: This is a terrific fun, especially if you. If you enjoy the movie, man. There we go. Oh, it was almost all in focus. Oh, fuck. It was almost all in focus.
[00:47:16] Speaker B: Well, anyways, there's only one book about Shaun of the Dead, and I suspect there will only be one book about Shaun of the dead, ever. So. So it's pretty easy for people to Google.
[00:47:26] Speaker A: But it's a. It's a really important movie. It's not just another movie. It's a movie that is great horror, great comedy, great filmmaking, because this really was the birth of.
Yeah. It was the first movie in essence, of a really important filmmaker.
[00:47:45] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Edgar's got it on me. People who don't know Edgar also made Scott Pilgrim versus the world, and last night in so late night in Soho and over the past couple of years has seemingly been attached to every sort of even remotely.
[00:48:06] Speaker A: He got sucked into the Marvel universe for a little while, didn't he? Doing he.
[00:48:12] Speaker B: Well, it's interesting because. Because very early on, even before Shaun of the dead, I believe he signed up to write and direct Ant man with Joe Cornish, who I spoke of earlier, who went on to direct attack the block, and this was before the MCU even existed.
And they. Yeah, they were gonna. They were gonna. They wrote Ant man, and then Edgar was gonna direct it, and it was, from what I understand, I haven't read the original script, but from what I understand, it was very much going to be a heist movie, and there is still some of that in the finished film. But it was. But it wasn't gonna be.
[00:48:55] Speaker A: But what?
[00:48:55] Speaker B: It wasn't going to be part of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, really. It wasn't particularly going to be connected to the rest of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, because when they started writing it, the Marvel Cinematic Universe literally did not exist. I think this is before Iron man was made.
And then over time, as the MCU exploded in popularity, I think the decision was made that this should be, you know, part of a. Part of a bigger.
A bigger thing. It should be, you know, more clearly folded into the MCU, and then, you know, Edgar ultimately left, and the script was rewritten. I should point out, Edgar's never spoken to me about this, so this isn't really insider knowledge. This is just sort of what is known about the situation.
And on the one hand, I'd love to have seen his ant Mandez, but, you know, on the other hand, he went off, and, I mean, he. He actually put a hold on ant man to make the world's end and the world's ends a wonderful movie. So.
[00:50:05] Speaker A: Agree.
[00:50:06] Speaker B: Who knows? But, yes, he was. He was involved very early on with the Marvel universe, and then.
And then didn't. And I think, to his credit, Edgar is. Edgar's not somebody who.
I think it's. It's. It's. Edgar's not someone who bad mouths other people. You know what I mean? He'll. He'll. He'll. I mean, I think he made it clear he wasn't happy with the Marvel situation. He made it. He made that clear by leaving it.
[00:50:32] Speaker A: There are creative differences. This. This. This happens all the time. Sometimes it's a part of the creative process, and sometimes, yes, diverge.
[00:50:42] Speaker B: Yeah.
So, yeah, he's not really somebody to.
He's not really somebody to.
He's not really somebody to badmouth people. Although I think the only one exception is when I'm just.
Scott Pilgrim is a wonderful film, but did not do well when it came out in the cinemas. And the creator of Family Guy tweeted, Seth Macfarlane. The creator of Family Guy wrote a tweet saying something like, scott Pilgrim Zero, the world ten or whatever after it bombed at the box office. And I remember talking to Edgar and him being like, I didn't say anything. I didn't say anything. And then Seth MacFarlane starred in a film called a Million Ways to die in the west and Edgar and that bombed the box office. And Edgar was just like I was. So I can't remember whether I don't think he tweeted, but he was certainly like I was. So, you know, like, what comes around, goes around. Seemed to be Edgar's opinion about that.
[00:51:50] Speaker A: Karma has its way of working.
[00:51:53] Speaker B: Yes, yes, yes.
[00:51:55] Speaker A: And maybe karma is the way for us to shift gears.
What kind of karma is the film and tv business experience here in America? It is absolutely stuck. Is it as bad on the other side?
[00:52:13] Speaker B: It's funny, I've been thinking about this as I knew I was going to come on. And, you know, I appreciate, God knows, I mean, I appreciate people, you know, trying to get projects made. It must be incredibly frustrating, particularly in the past twelve months or the past two years. Well, I guess for a long time, but just on a micro level. I mean, I'm a horror fan, and in the past three weeks, I went to see Maxine, the new Ty west movie, and then I went to see, which I had mixed feelings about. I didn't enjoy it quite as much as the first two films in that trilogy, X and Pearl. But the fact that a 24 is financing a trilogy of slasher movies set in different periods of history starring the same actress, Mir Garth, I think that's quite exciting. And then last week I went to see a quiet place, year one, which I really enjoyed. And then this weekend I saw Nicolas cage being crazy as hell in long legs.
So, I mean, we can talk about, you know, broader problems, but I'd be lying if I didn't say that in my little corner of, like, horror mayhem, I'm kind of having a hell of a time. I'm being, I'm being served up, you know, exactly what I want.
[00:53:40] Speaker A: How much are the, how much are these movies costing? Is there, are they, are they falling within a certain price range? And is that what's making them?
I think horror is perennial.
[00:53:52] Speaker B: I mean, I think, like, I think, I believe long legs cost about 10 million and made like, 25 on its opening weekend.
A quiet, not a quiet earth, much, much more expensive.
Maxine would have been quite cheap. So, yeah, they're not, I mean, they're not costing a lot of money. And, I mean, one of the things that kind of amazes me, writing about horror. I, is that people are often seen to be making horror movies for much less now than you folks or gilded you were producing in the nineties.
And I don't mean in inflation adjusted terms. I mean, Blumhouse routinely, it seems, makes movies for $5 million. And I know there's back end participation so on and so forth. But you know, I mean, if dark, I mean, if someone said to Dark Castle, could you make a move? You know, make a movie for $5 million, you might well have not thought that was, that was that great, great offer. Right.
[00:54:56] Speaker C: Right then. But now, now the sweet spot, it seems to me, for our movies is around 5 million. You think of Annabelle, it was made for 5 million, grosses 200 million. They do Annabelle too, for another 5 million. Also grosses big numbers. So I think the sweet spot has been sort of established around $5 million. And when you get into like a quiet place, which I think the first one was $17 million, you know, it becomes a very different animal and becomes a different, a different situation for why they're financing it.
[00:55:27] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's just crazy to me how, how little they make horror movies for, I have to say. Right.
I mean, I know there's always the Blair witchen project type, type, you know, movies that are made for literally nothing but the cost of, well, I guess not the cost of all movies, but as like blockbuster movies have just, you know, they've gone from, you know, say $100 million in the nineties to 250 now. The price of horror movies seems to have decreased over time.
[00:56:01] Speaker C: Yeah, I think that's very true. And I think that's because they, I think they think that you can still get, because most horror movies don't have stars, don't have actors, so that money is off the table. And then how much does we really need to scare people? And the most important thing in these horror movies is to scare people. Not so much the names.
I think it's really the scares and the good storytelling. And again, the relationships and the emotional relationship between characters.
[00:56:36] Speaker B: Well, it's also interesting because the, the movies that you produced, I'm thinking of 13 ghosts and house on Haunted Hill. In a sense it's all one setting, but the setting is like some lavish glass structure or, you know, a massive disused mental health institution. Whereas now Blumhouse is sort of operating on the same rationale, except it's like a suburban home with two, with two bedrooms. Yeah.
[00:57:09] Speaker C: They brought down the cost of the sets quite a bit. Yes.
[00:57:12] Speaker B: No one's going, let's make this glass, for both plot related and financial reasons.
But, Alan, so what?
I'm painting a rosy picture, I think, just because I've had a pleasant couple of weeks being frightened at my local picture palace. But what do you think of the main.
What is it that.
Well.
[00:57:48] Speaker A: And again, I've been an outside observer, really just trying to bash his way back in until the film business kind of fell apart. Except for superheroes and huge budgeted movies and little teeny movies, everything in between.
It's like the middle class. It's just gone and nobody knows how to do them.
It's so if one wants to get content from one's head into the marketplace, that's how I think about it.
That's a dead business.
That's a dead business. Tv was great for a little while there. There was that golden age of streaming, until everyone realized it was unsupportable financially, because you're not going to keep getting subscribers and subscribers and subscribers. Yeah. At some point, the old fashioned ad model, the one that kept people like Gil and I going with residual checks. I mean, it used to be fantastic. It still is for some people, for tales from the crypt. There are no residual checks because the crip partners don't give a fuck that it plays for free on YouTube, and so there's no streaming deal.
But the economics of that were, that's what supported this town, and really that's what made everything happen.
The other problem with streaming was that lack of transparency.
You could do a show like squid games for Netflix, and, man, they wouldn't. I don't think they even told the people who made the show how big an audience it got.
But really, all the dollars that Netflix was making as the ticket taker, pretty much, I'd say about 90% of that money actually belonged in the pockets of the people who made squid games because they actually created the content.
Netflix is just a platform. It's literally just the ticket taker. And as has always been the case in the business, yeah, the people with their hands on the immediate money, they always seem to do best out of everybody.
Unfortunately, we, all the crafts, we all struck at probably the worst possible economic time to have struck. That's when our contracts were up.
And it was untenable. It's been untenable for a while. And so I think the ultimate problem, since you asked, Clark, sure, it's really. Napster came for us all, you included, because journalism succumbed to the napsterization, where really everything became peer to peer. Napster destroyed the music business because I no longer needed to go to a record store to get my music. I could talk. My friend would send me his music files.
And, hey, once we started doing that, sharing widely, well, that cut the music business out of the loop, too. And whereas in the old days, musical artists used to tour to support their album sales, well, now the album sales weren't worth anything. They're giving the money away to support touring and merch and all that stuff. And so for the music business, it's now peer to peer. It's your relationship with your fans is everything.
And social media, at the end of the day, did that. Hey, remember cab companies?
I think they might still. They probably still have them in London. They have the black cabs still. But Uber and Lyft, are they making inroads now?
[01:01:59] Speaker B: Oh, for sure. And for people, I mean, I'm sure you'll know. But London cabbies, unlike, I can tell you, New York cabbies had to do this thing called the knowledge, where they had to learn every street in London.
[01:02:13] Speaker A: London, a to z and then some, right?
[01:02:15] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
[01:02:15] Speaker A: No, they weren't like a to z. I apologize.
[01:02:18] Speaker B: Yes, they got a to z in their head. Um, and so you'd hop into a black cab and just sort of, you know, say a name of a road and they might say, do you mean, you know, such and such a road in Islington or in Brixton? And you tell them and then they drive you there. But I don't know. In an age where. I mean, yes, it's Uber and Lyft, but, but there are still black cabs. But, but given that everybody can now use maps, I don't know if they're still. If they still have to do that anymore. I certainly take your point. I mean, I think there's, there's.
You sort of got to look at this. There's sort of two interlinked things going on, one of which is the march of technology that I don't know if we can do much about it. And I know AI is a very.
A big subject with regards to writing and actors and so on and so forth, and I support whatever positions, the unions, a take on that. But ultimately, there's only so much you can do about technology. But then I think there are human decisions which have been made, creative decisions, which are quite appalling. And I would agree with you, the hollowing out of the sort of mid range movie is, you know, is quite appalling. And we've trained. We've now sort of trained basically, you know, we've trained so many people just not to go to the cinema because it's funny. I was talking, I interviewed project Im working on. I interviewed an editor and a director called Patrick Lussier, who edited the first three screen movies and did a lot of stuff with Wes Craven and then became a director in his own right. But he said that Wes Craven used to say that what youve got to do within the first 15 minutes of a horror movie is make the, is do something so the audience dont trust you anymore. Youve got to sort of, and I guess the most obvious example of that is the killing of Drew Barrymore at the start of scream. But its almost like the audience are making a pact with you that you havent got a pact with them.
If you can make them not trust you in the first 15 minutes, then youve kind of got them. And I think that the converse is true with so many blockbuster movies where theres no thought to, you know, immediately the director is taking somebody by the hand and saying, oh, you know, there'll be car chases and witticisms and then we'll spend the last 20 minutes with a big fight.
And I'm not just talking about superhero movies now, but, you know, almost any kind of, you know, any blockbuster or anything with a number after it. I mean, I'm not, I'm not against sequels sort of philosophically, but it's just the same movie over and over again. And I think, you know, there comes a point where it's part of, but.
[01:05:06] Speaker A: That is part of the point of the exercise. It is what the audience kind of wants. It's a perverse, it's a perverse hamster wheel to be stuck on, but it.
[01:05:16] Speaker B: Means that it's always got to be, you know, 20, 50% more expensive. And in the end it becomes too top heavy and they can't make them anymore and people become bored with them. And then, but then you're left, what you're left with is a business model or something, as you say, has to cost either $250 million or $250.
[01:05:39] Speaker A: It's a mess that, well, greed is always stupid, but it's always there. It's the people who have no talent other than finding their way to most of the money.
Yeah, it's, it's, it's. God, if only we could fix humanity, wouldn't we be clever?
The, uh, the entertainment journalism business has also had its vicissitudes.
[01:06:12] Speaker B: Well, yeah, that's, that's true. Um, I mean, entertainment Weekly stopped being a physical magazine, a couple of years back, which sort of meant a lot of things for us. I mean, I'm still very supportive of my colleagues. I got nothing bad to say about Entertainment Weekly, as you say. I have plenty of bad things to say about humanity and the 21st century and its effect on our ability to print a magazine.
But no, nothing. I had a great time at Entertainment Weekly. But once you're no longer printing up 2 million copies and sending it around the country, then you do sort of slip down the totem pole a little bit, which just made the job sort of harder and harder to do the things I wanted to do, really. I mean, in a sense, I mean, I have to say, in a sense, like, if you want to find out now about game of Thrones, for instance, then that is covered in a way now that it wouldn't have been 20 years ago, and you can find out every single thing you want to find out about it. And, you know, you can read interviews with the costume designers and so on and so forth. And so from a consumer point of view, I actually think in many ways they're quite well served, really. Now, do you still have those fantastic profiles you used to read in Vanity Fair or Entertainment Weekly or the New Yorker? I mean, you still do read them in New York occasionally, but no one's hanging out in Vin Diesel's kitchen for six months to find out what it's really like to be with Vin Diesel. And that's regrettable.
I guess what I'm saying is, actually, in a sense, entertainment journalism is quite healthy from a consumer's point of view, but it's harder and harder to make a living out of it. Or it's harder and harder to do the sort of things that I want to do with it anyway. Also, I'm not.
[01:08:32] Speaker A: But what you're saying is that, but what you're saying is that. But it's. It's also less journalistically satisfying.
[01:08:41] Speaker B: It's less satisfying. I mean, to be honest, I always think journalism, journalists are the people that are, like in Palestine right now, reporting on it. And what I do is occasionally do a Zoom with George Clooney, which is, which is a slightly different kettle of fish, you know, so I'm always slightly uneasy with the, with the term journalist applying to me anyway, not, not speaking for anybody else, but just for me.
[01:09:09] Speaker A: Understood. Understood.
[01:09:11] Speaker B: But, yes. I mean, it's. Yes. And everybody, there's just so many people covering everything. I mean, and also, this wasn't, I was reading an interview with the, I think it was the actress who was in who was at a quiet place year one, where she said that junkets, from her point of view, were a form of torture, like having to do interviews, like, 20 times a day. Now, I'm sure if she could respeak that, she probably wouldn't literally use the word torture. And God knows these people are paid enough to warrant that. But for someone to say that you're like, well, I don't really want to be the person. I don't really want to be the person inflicting torture on people. You know what I mean? And God knows I've interviewed some people that certainly seem to regard me as someone torturing them by asking them questions. But the problem is you sort of have to ask a couple of pretty basic questions just to get some sort of. I mean, if you're interviewing someone for five minutes or ten minutes, yes, you can have some fun with it, but you've also got to ask something just to set up the film or the tv show or whatever, which they undoubtedly have been asked 20 times that day. You know, so it's very hard to.
I mean, in the early days of Entertainment Weekly, I used to sort of be able to ferret out weird stories and convince my editors to let me run, like, stories on that movie the room. I mean, talking about, you know, how not to make a movie that Tommy Wiseau movie, the room, which just a friend of a friend invited me along to a screening, and no one had reported on it. I convinced entertainment.
[01:10:54] Speaker A: That's notorious. That's a notorious movie. How is that?
[01:10:58] Speaker B: Oh, it's. It's unbelievable. But it sort of has to be seen with a. With an audience, although that's quite. That's quite frightening in itself.
I mean, that is. That was a very weird experience, going to see that, because I didn't know anything about it. So one of the things.
This is very much a sidetracked discussion, I guess, a tangential discussion.
[01:11:18] Speaker A: These are all tangential discussions.
[01:11:21] Speaker B: One of the things about the room is that they set, dressed it with frames that they bought at a shop, but then did not remove the photographs that were in the frame that came with the frames. So instead of photographs of the character whose apartment it was, it was, for example, a photograph of a spoon. You know, you can imagine you go to a department store and there's a frame, small frame, and they got like an arty black and white photograph of a spoon. And so the room became sort of a cult thing in Los Angeles, and people started responding to it as if it was the rocky horror picture. Show. And every time this, this, every time there was a shot featuring this frame with a spoon, people had brought along plastic spoons and would hurl plastic spoons at the screen while screaming, spoons.
But I didn't know any of this when I first went to see it. And it was a midnight screening at the what used to be the sunset five.
[01:12:31] Speaker A: I want to see it. I want to see that experience from the filmmaker's point of view. You've created something that people are responding to so vociferously that they're shouting at the screen and throwing things.
[01:12:46] Speaker B: Wow.
[01:12:47] Speaker A: Wow.
[01:12:48] Speaker B: And of course, the filmmaker said that it was supposed to be a comedy all along, and people were responding it to it in exactly the way that they thought he would. But then they made a whole movie, the disaster artist, about the making of the room. So I guess my point is, in the old days, I could sort of ferret out of, uh, stories like that and then twist my, um, editors arm to run like a big feature. Whereas if that was nowadays, that would have been reported out in multiple outlets before I'd even heard of it. Uh, so I guess what I'm saying is, is that I was, I was too lazy to make it in the, in the current, uh, in the. Because of the current. Because of the avalanche of entertainment reporting. Really.
[01:13:35] Speaker A: It is a tricky, tricky environment. Sure.
What are you. How are you attacking the future? Because you said, all right, right now you're. You're good. But, okay, let's say you said September.
[01:13:48] Speaker B: Rolls around, and I worry that I've now let. I've now discussed my finances too much on this podcast, to be clear.
[01:13:58] Speaker A: I was, I just want to.
When you're back into the sitting completely with the rest of us working stiffs, as I think I referred to us.
[01:14:10] Speaker B: No, I've actually been quite busy.
I don't want to say too much about it, but I found writing the Shaun of the Dead book to be an incredibly rewarding experience.
And I'm now working on a second book that sort of is also about horror films, but takes a sort of, is not just about one horror film, but sort of, it's more a sort of modern history of horror. And I've been really enjoying.
I've just been really enjoying diving into.
[01:14:44] Speaker A: Well, can I tell you, Sean, as a fan and a customer, I'm delighted to hear you say that. Carry on.
[01:14:56] Speaker B: No, it's just the problem is there's so much of it. You know what I mean? There's so much horror. And because it. Because so much of it is made by people just starting out or people working on very low budgets.
There's just so many fascinating stories. But one of the great things is that, is that there is like, just a lot of people know each other, and maybe this is true of other genres, but I don't know. I don't know if romantic comedy filmmakers necessarily spend a lot of time hanging out. But with horror, you really have. I don't want to say it's a community, but because, you know, for example, there's, you know, of the films I'm writing about, so many of them, the special effects were really by, like, a handful of people, you know, a lot of whom you know one way or another, pass through some of the projects you gentlemen worked on.
For example, KNB, which is Greg Nicotero and Howard Burgess Company.
I'm almost afraid to ask for an interview with them because they'll say, well, what films do you want to talk about? I'd be like, all of them. All of the films in the last 40 years. No, that's not. That's something of an exaggeration. I know there are many other production houses and special effects houses, and I'm talking to many of them, too, but it's just like a sort of. The six degrees of. Kevin Bacon really works very well with horror, not least because Kevin Bacon has made an awful lot of horror films. So it works, like, metaphorically and literally.
So, yeah, I'm having a lot of fun with that. It's just very hard to, uh. You're at a point where it's like, like, do people want to hear about the human Centipede? Because I have some really great stories about the human Centipede movie.
[01:16:53] Speaker A: So, you know, you know, the horror community is a community.
And, hey, they have conventions, and having been to a couple of those conventions, and they're lovely. They're wonderful. The horror community are really, by and large, really the sweetest people on the planet because they subvert all their hostilities into horror.
And when they walk around a horror convention, a lot of them, in cosplay, they dress up as Freddie, they dress up as Jason, they dress up as leatherface. You know who they never, ever dress up as? The victim.
[01:17:34] Speaker B: Right, right, right.
[01:17:35] Speaker A: Because the. The monster. And not all monsters are villains, but the monster is the empowered one.
And horror, I. When I didn't. I didn't even get it until the first time that I attended a horror convention before we started working at them.
It really is. It's the empowerment that everybody there has because of their passion for this genre.
And I think that's why as a community they're so loyal and hey, but they can be mean and hard because it's so important to who they are.
[01:18:20] Speaker B: No, that's absolutely true. And also, I mean, this isn't why I'm writing it, but also they're one of the last groups of people interested in buying physical media. It seems if you look at the, if you look at the list of maybe not the best movies in the world but, but horror movies which have been given, you know, 4k restorations on Blu ray and, you know, bonus features and all the rest of it, then, then horror. Does love, does love a physical media.
[01:18:51] Speaker A: You know, our, I guess on a certain level trekkies started this when they began to have conventions and suddenly it made it okay to go out in public and celebrate this passion together.
And then suddenly it became marketable and man, as soon as someone realized you can make a buck at this, well, then it was, yeah, it's a world that, that can fill with life.
[01:19:28] Speaker B: Yeah, no, absolutely. Although if you look at, I think a lot of the companies that do produce these, a lot of blu rays and dvd's of old or even forgotten horror films, I get the impression there, you know, there is the people that are running it of fans and probably aren't driving around and gold or, and.
[01:19:50] Speaker A: I bet they're just as happy. Oh, they might, they might like that other car, but you know, they're doing something that, that brings them joy and you know, that's not a bad thing either. No, that actually, I bet between the three of us, we all know lots of really miserable as fuck rich people.
[01:20:11] Speaker B: Yes, absolutely. And I have to say, plug my book for the thousandth time, the most rewarding thing even now someone will tag me on Instagram and they'll be on a beach reading you've got red on you and saying how much they're enjoying it. And that's like, I mean, thankfully that's worth just, that's worth just as much, if not considerably more than the amount of money I've earned from it.
[01:20:36] Speaker A: Oh, absolutely. It is as we, as I said, it's, it's, it's you to your, to the reader themselves, that individual person. And it's making that one person happy.
If that doesn't make your day, what? Why the fuck are you doing this?
[01:20:57] Speaker B: No, absolutely, absolutely.
[01:20:59] Speaker A: I thank you so much for joining us today, Clark. And I cannot, I'll hold up the book, but. Oh, what's the point?
There will be plenty of chances to see the book on our website, and we will have links to all the different places you can buy it and be on the lookout for whatever Clark is doing next because he is a terrific writer.
[01:21:23] Speaker C: And take it to the beach, read it, and get on Instagram with him.
[01:21:28] Speaker B: That's absolutely right. I'm Collins.
[01:21:31] Speaker A: Please, where can everyone find you?
[01:21:34] Speaker B: Yeah, at Clark. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not hard to find. It's. I think it's on. On everything. I'm. I'm at Clark Collis if you want to. Actually, I haven't done much shameless promotion in a while, so.
[01:21:46] Speaker A: Well, hey, but. But, hey, this is part of being a working stiff, my friend.
[01:21:49] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Although I will say before. Before I leave, and I guess because the reason we met was because of your, you know, this wonderful podcast about bought bordello of blood, and that was an example of something that nobody had written about. And I was like, oh, really? I remembered seeing the film and I listened to some of the podcast episodes, and I'm like, this is a rollicking tale, I have to say. And then I spoke to you both about the podcast and about the film. And it's one of those things that nowadays, because everything, the headlines to stories, I mean, headlines used to be some sort of, like, clever oblique pun or whatever, and then the deck would tell you what the thing was. But nowadays, the headline really has to do all the work because it has to be something that you see on Twitter. And I can't quite remember what the.
I can't remember what the headline was, but it was something like how a crappy Dennis Miller vampire movie became the year's best podcast. So it's not. I mean, any clever thing is. Any clever thing is somehow getting that, you know, in the tiny amount of space that you can. And that's a fine. That headlines, fine. But I love.
[01:23:08] Speaker A: I love your headline because it was the best film podcast of 2022, is what it said. And that was, that was such. I cannot tell you what that meant in every way, shape and form. And I don't think I've ever had a chance to thank you for that. But, oh, my God, thank you so much for that.
[01:23:26] Speaker B: No, thank you at all. It was entirely deserved, but I felt bad writing it because I firmly believe, not because the podcast isn't fantastic, but someone, and I can't think who it was, but someone once, and this has really stuck with me, someone once said that what you've always got to remember is that, is that every film is somebody's favorite film, right? And as I was running the headline, I think even subconsciously I was thinking, I'm saying the bordello of Blood is crappy, but someone somewhere is gonna write to me saying, I fucking love that movie. And so the article got posted and there was like one or two sort of comments about this and that. And then someone wrote a, you can't call this crappy. That's a great movie. And they're not wrong. I mean, maybe they're not right, but they, that movie and loved it. And I'm not suggesting that there's no point evaluating art at all. But, but you know, every almost, you know, well, certainly in the case of films, I think it's true that every film is somebody's favorite film. And that's, and I just think that's something. I'm not saying it was worth all the blood.
[01:24:43] Speaker A: I have, I have a, I have a friend who thinks Ishtar is funny.
[01:24:49] Speaker B: There are lots of, there are lots of people that think Ishtar, Ishtar has really come back for some, some reevaluation. I think I'll have to look at.
[01:25:00] Speaker A: It again because the last time I remember seeing, I thought, okay, okay.
[01:25:06] Speaker B: Yes. But so anyway, that's, that was my just sort of addendum to proceedings.
[01:25:11] Speaker C: There's no explanation for bad taste.
[01:25:16] Speaker A: But thank you for the very kind words and thank you for sharing your passion for horror, zombie movies and especially Sean.
[01:25:27] Speaker C: It's really good to see you, Mandev.
[01:25:31] Speaker B: And I should say, cuz, cuz I feel I disappointed you in my less than grim assessment of horror movies. Maybe if you had me on like in three months time when there's a drought or. I feel, I feel like disappointed you by not entirely agreeing that we're all, no, no, no.
[01:25:49] Speaker A: I asked the question. You, you give the answer.
[01:25:52] Speaker B: You give.
[01:25:53] Speaker A: I'm just here, I got my perspective. You got your perspective in both perspectives are perfectly good.
[01:25:59] Speaker C: But we very well may take you up on your offer to come back in three months and have this all over again.
[01:26:04] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I'm just, you know, if they stop releasing movies for a month, then I'll be like, you know what's going on? But thanks so much, folks. I really appreciate you having me on.
[01:26:15] Speaker A: And thank you everybody for tuning in, as always. We'll see you next time.
The how not to make a movie podcast. Alan Cass is executive produced by me, Alan Kass, by Gil Adler and by Jason Stein. Our artwork was done by the amazing Jody Webster and Jason, Jody along with Mando are all the hosts of the fun and informative dads from the Crip podcast. Follow them for what my old pal the crypt keeper would have called terrific crip content.
