S3E27: Tobe Hooper’s Dirty Little Secret

[00:00:00] Speaker A: This podcast is a collaboration between costart and Touchstone Productions and the Dads from. [00:00:05] Speaker B: The Crypt podcast, the Texas Chainsaw Massacre. After you stop screaming, you'll start talking about it. [00:00:21] Speaker A: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the how not to make a movie podcast. I'm Alan Katz. Gil will join us shortly. One of the greatest things about doing tales from the crypt, and there were lots and lots of great things about it, was getting to work with all the talented people that we got to work with. There were lots and lots of pinch me moments because of it. Kirk Douglas, Tom Hanks, Daniel Craig, Billy Friedkin, John Frankenheimer. Our executive producers, Dick Donner, Bob Zemeckis, and Walter Hill, Pinchmate and prominent in that club, Tobe Hooper. He was one of the inventors of the modern american horror movie and a terrific moviemaker to begin with and a terrific person on top of it all. Spoiler alert. That is Tobe Hooper's big dirty secret. For all the blood and gore and horror he envisioned, the man himself was absolutely lovely. A real pleasure to know in this episode, in addition to sharing our own stories about working with Toby and in Gil's case, knowing Toby as a friend, we'll talk to Kim Henkel, co writer with Toby of the Texas Chainsaw massacre screenplay and a longtime friend of Toby's, we'll talk to Levy Isaacs. Levy was one of Toby's regular directors of photography. He has an uncredited voice role in Chainsaw. And of course, Levy was a longtime DP on Tales from the Crypt. Finally, we'll talk to the dads from the crypt, Jason, Jody, and Mando, all huge Tobe Hooper fans, and get their insights into Toby and his considerable body of work. So if you're a Tobe Hooper fan, you're in very good company with a lot of other Tobe Hooper fans. Worked a couple of projects with Toby, a tv series called Haunted Lives, another tv series called Tales from the Crypt, and, of course, Toby. His most famous piece of work is the Texas Chainsaw Massacre. And that changed. That changed the horror business. It changed the movie business because it. [00:02:26] Speaker C: Changed the horror, and it certainly changed Toby's life as well. [00:02:29] Speaker A: I worked with him. I was friendly with him. You were friends with Toby? [00:02:35] Speaker C: Yeah. You know, it started out as a working relationship on tales from the crypt, and before that, on the horror thing we did for, I think, CB's haunted lives, your haunted lives. I think, you know, from those two experiences in a professional capacity, we just became really good friends. And it survived, you know, until he passed. We would talk all the time and, you know, and share dinner and share stories and just enjoy each other's company. And, you know, it went on for all these, all those years after tales from the crypt and after we worked with him. He was very smart. He was very sweet. He really was a nice person. He really cared about people. And the people that he cared about, he really cared deeply for them. There was conflict, there were arguments. There were problems. There were issues. But, like with any good relationship, that's all part of the course. [00:03:34] Speaker A: A quick note about the show we're referencing. Gil and I made a pilot called Haunted True Ghost stories for CB's. The feature episode was about how the famous hotel del carved Coronado in San Diego is haunted by a beautiful young woman named Kate Morgan who committed suicide there in 1892. [00:03:52] Speaker C: Toby came to me one day and he said, have you, have you been in that room? I go, one room. You know, the room. The room. You know, the room. The room. We're talking about the room. We're shooting in that room. I said, yeah. He goes, have you, have you felt it? I said, you mean the ghost? Yeah, he had a ghost. I said, well, you, you know, sort of, I guess. [00:04:11] Speaker A: Now the ghost in question was. Her name was Kate Morgan. [00:04:16] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:04:17] Speaker A: And the story was that the Hotel del Coronado in San Diego, that very famous hotel, is haunted by a ghost who was a living person named Kate Morgan who died there. [00:04:33] Speaker C: Right. And who was in that room, that specific room. [00:04:37] Speaker A: Right. [00:04:37] Speaker C: So, you know, I had, I sort of had to calm him down from that experience and, and say, toby, you know, that's why we're here, because we think it's real. No, no, but it's. But it is real. And so, you know, it was kind of a funny conversation, especially talking to someone like Toby Hooper, who's known for creating that world and that kind of stuff. But when he came confronted with it in real life, it became a little bit more frightening. [00:05:06] Speaker A: So how does it happen? How does a college professor and documentary cameraman, that's what Toby was doing in the late 1960s, suddenly become a horror movie legend? Well, it's complicated. Like, Toby himself, Kim Henkel co wrote Texas Chainsaw Massacre with Toby and co produced it. But Chainsaw wasn't Kim and Toby's first time at the rodeo together. [00:05:27] Speaker B: We had our ups and downs, you know, ping pong ball sorts of thing. But, you know, there was creative relationships. [00:05:33] Speaker A: Do. [00:05:34] Speaker B: Yeah, you know, we, we sort of grew up together, so we knew one another and there was that kind of, you know, bond that comes of that kind of relationship of that time in your life that always exists and, you know, you always tap back into it in some way or another. So, you know, even though, you know, it was very rocky at times, you know, there was always something there. [00:06:01] Speaker A: The first thing you guys did together was a little piece called eggshells. [00:06:06] Speaker B: Mm hmm. [00:06:07] Speaker A: Yeah, eggshells, which was not a horror piece at all. Cinematographer Levy Isaac it was basically a. [00:06:14] Speaker D: Documentary about the sixties. Now, the thing of it is, it captures that time so well. I mean, I was just really knocked out. It just, I mean, you feel what it was like to live and be in that era. [00:06:31] Speaker A: As far as I can tell, eggshells is about hippies living in a house and there's something in the basement. [00:06:38] Speaker B: Well, that's a good way of expressing what it's about, is any. Because it's kind of elusive. [00:06:47] Speaker A: Elusive. I think I saw someone describe it as experimental. [00:06:56] Speaker B: Every bit of the way. [00:06:58] Speaker A: When I was in college. Yeah, that basically. Well, I think the word we would use now is self indulgent, but. [00:07:09] Speaker B: Yep. [00:07:10] Speaker A: Anyway, so eggshells was just out of curiosity then. Okay, what was in the basement? [00:07:21] Speaker B: If I knew, I wouldn't tell you, but I have no clue. It's been a million years since I've seen that, and I have no more clue now about it, what it was about, than I did the day I saw the completed work. It required a leaf of faith, to say the least. [00:07:43] Speaker C: How did you originally hook up and know Toby? [00:07:45] Speaker B: How'd you guys come together on the set of eggshells? Actually, you know, the principal subjects of that film were friends of mine, and we were actually living together in the same house, you know, one of those old houses, you know, north of the UT campus in Austin. And there were, what, four or five of us living there. What year in the year is what, 70? 1970. Yeah. [00:08:17] Speaker A: It's a very particular time and place. [00:08:19] Speaker B: Yes, yes. And in Austin, Texas, it was remarkable. Austin was population of. Austin was about 300,000 at the time. It was a small town. [00:08:31] Speaker A: I know that Toby was on campus when the famous incident with the shooter in the bell tower happened. Were you on campus at. At that time? [00:08:41] Speaker B: No, I wasn't. I actually was on campus quite a bit the day before the shooting happened. My older brother and I were in Austin looking for lodgings for the fall semester. So we were looking for apartments and housing, and we're all over and left the day before. And fortunately, because we would have been right in the line of fire. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Do you guys know Luke Perryman, who was in chainsaw, two character actor who was a good friend of Toby's. Part of the Austin scene there. [00:09:22] Speaker A: No, of him. [00:09:25] Speaker B: Yeah. His brother also was a collaborator with Toby's early on. And he lived about a block from campus, pulled out a camera, went over to campuse, shot a lot of footage and wound up selling his photographs to Life magazine. And if you see Life magazine spread on that tower shooting, most of those photographs are by Ron Perryman. [00:09:49] Speaker A: I wonder if the. Having been on campus when that happened, I wonder how that impressed Toby. As creative people, these things always find their way into what we do. [00:10:10] Speaker B: I'm sure that's the case. That's something that we never really talked about him. That experience. We talked about a great deal, but that particular experience, we did not. I don't recall that conversation on that. [00:10:26] Speaker A: It's a particularly timely experience, you know, here in America. I mean, that has not gone away. The shooter in the tower. The horror that you feel in the moment is. You can't write that. It's so automatic. [00:10:42] Speaker B: In a way. That was the inciting incident, so to speak, of what we've come to find occurs almost daily now in our lives. [00:10:53] Speaker A: As you look at eggshells. That thing in the basement. Was there any horror to the thing in the basement? Or was it just an esoteric kind of a. Was it a threat? [00:11:05] Speaker B: Was. It was more. It was a mystery as to whether or not it was a threat or not, is my vague recollection of it. It was a spirit, a presence, an electronic entity for want of a better expression. And what its particular characteristics were not quite defined. When Toby and I first started talking about doing what became chainsaw, we had a lot of conversations when we basically put together the structure of it, but we had a fundamental difference. And what Toby was interested in initially was something in that house that was similar to what was in that basement. My feeling was, you know, what really was truly frightening was us. There was a lot of pragmatism involved as well. You know, eggshells came out, and I think it appeared in one theater somewhere for one evening, maybe would appear at a film festival or two. But in those days, there just weren't any ancillary markets. [00:12:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:12:16] Speaker B: You know, you either got into theater or you died. You were sitting on a shelf. [00:12:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:12:21] Speaker B: And even had there been. You know, had the world been different, had the world been more like there was today and there'd been opportunity, it probably wouldn't have found a really broad audience. It was, as you said, you know, somewhat indulgent. And it didn't have, you know, the kind of focus that I think, you know, is going to win abroad on it, let's say. So when we sat down to talk about chainsaw, that was one of the things we have in mind. Here we are, we have no money, which means we're not going to have access to top talent, production values, etcetera. So given those circumstances, given the fact that there are no ancillary markets, what can we, as unknowns, do to try to actually get it into theaters? And it seemed to us two answers to that. One was science fiction, the other horror. And horror, I think, you know, the direction that we chose, you weren't horror. [00:13:23] Speaker A: Nerds as you set out to make the movie? [00:13:27] Speaker B: Well, I certainly wasn't. I wasn't even a movie nerd. You know, I was a book nerd. [00:13:33] Speaker A: So, yeah, so, you know, that it sprang from something more. [00:13:45] Speaker B: I would read a lot of fairy tales, japanese fairy tales, german fairy tales, fairy tales from around the world. And part of it was we were looking at what is at the core of these things that allowed them to endure across centuries. What are they getting at? It's fundamental kind of human concerns and fears we felt was at the core of. And we were trying to find a way for ourselves to sort of enter that same space. [00:14:14] Speaker A: The, the source material, of course, was Ed Guine up in. Was in Wisconsin. [00:14:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:14:23] Speaker A: And there was another case in Texas that. [00:14:26] Speaker B: Yeah, they called him the Candyman murders in Houston. Elmer Wayne Hentley, but Dean Coral. [00:14:35] Speaker A: But what you and Toby created on the page was something, something quite, quite different from. From either of those things. I mean. [00:14:43] Speaker B: Oh, of course, yes. [00:14:44] Speaker A: Ed Guyn was. Was. Was a loner. This other guy was a loner. [00:14:50] Speaker B: Mm hmm. [00:14:52] Speaker A: You all created a family, a very, very different, very different thing. And really and truly, you know, I went back and I watched it last night just because, just to refresh my memory. And really, it's a monster. [00:15:13] Speaker B: You care about Leatherface. [00:15:15] Speaker A: Yeah. In fact, you care. You kind of care about the whole family unit, because it's a family unit of. And he's. Leatherface is just really, he's part of a family unit. [00:15:36] Speaker B: I grew up in a very large, very dysfunctional family. [00:15:42] Speaker A: What was it like writing a script with, with Toby? [00:15:47] Speaker B: What was it like? [00:15:49] Speaker A: Gil and I have written scripts together. We have a process. As Toby and you wrote the script together. What was your collective process? [00:15:58] Speaker B: Okay, well, I mentioned to you, we talked about doing something a few years before we actually sat down to write the chainsaw script. And we basically had a fundamental approach and structure which was structurally, was sort of Hansel and graff, frankly, and. But the conversations we were having were who was in that house? And my inclinations were tended toward, you know, what's most frightening is us. And Toby was inclined towards something closer to what was in the basement and eggshells. And, you know, of course, in those days, most horror that you saw creatures were supernatural. You didn't see too much of, you know, human beings. But I felt very powerfully, very strongly that, you know, that was where the real fear resided. And so we finally came together on that point. And I think, you know, Toby tells a story about going into a Montgomery ward and seeing chainsaw. And I think that's largely a fiction, but, you know, it serves the story well or the concept well. But he did call me up one day and said, hey, let's go to work. I've got an idea about how we can make it work, because I make it human. And he had an idea for a character that was more or less the leatherface character. [00:17:33] Speaker A: Okay, so that's really the key. So really, it started with the leatherface character, right. [00:17:39] Speaker B: Yeah. We took sort of different points of view and emerged, too, something that was, I think, satisfied both of us, let's say. [00:17:48] Speaker A: Cool. [00:17:49] Speaker B: And, you know, the. The supernatural appeared, you know, in the chainsaw, of course, in terms of what you see from the sense of this is a time that's faded astrologically, you know, Mars is in retrograde. [00:18:07] Speaker A: Yes. [00:18:10] Speaker B: So, you know, we didn't leave that aside, but it took a bit of a different form. One of the films that was very influential, we saw, actually, it was released in, I think, the spring of 73, was straw dogs. Peck and Paul. Straw dogs. [00:18:24] Speaker A: Sure, sure. [00:18:25] Speaker B: And Toby and I were in Houston for some reason or another, and we went to see that. We both came out of the theater just innervated, just drained, you know, because it had that kind of intensity. And we wanted that very much. So that very much influenced the kind of impact we wanted to deliver with it. [00:18:45] Speaker A: Toby has said that it's a movie about meat. [00:18:51] Speaker B: Well, I can't say that it's a movie about meat. We certainly brush past that territory. But to say it's a movie about meat specifically, I think, is maybe a bridge too far. [00:19:07] Speaker A: Well, there's a terrific. We're always seeing that chicken in the cage. There's the conversation about killing cows in the van. It's quite a good argument for vegetarianism, because, really, how can we feel that badly about the cow when we either stun it or take a sledgehammer to its head. And really, that's all that's happening to these characters when they walk. Hey, they're no more than meat. Walking into the place where people looking to eat it. [00:19:46] Speaker B: Well, I would have to point out to you that never once in the entirety of the film was the word cannibalism. You know, ever heard no consumption of human, identifiably human flesh ever takes place. Oh, talk about consuming. Everything to do with cannibalism is absolutely implied and deliberately so. In those days, if you had touched upon that subject, you would get an x rating. Oh, surely, surely you'd be in real trouble. [00:20:17] Speaker A: In point of fact, you don't see anything. All the violence. All the violence is off screen in that first movie. There's really nothing on screen. It's all implied, really. Toby takes you right up to the last second, but you never see anything. [00:20:35] Speaker B: That was strategically part of the plan. But it also was greatly influenced by our. Our budget. We, you know, for practical reasons, you know, avoided certain kinds of things that we knew we couldn't quite really pull off in the way we might have liked to if we were going to do it. And a lot of people have told me over the years, you know, the scene where the. The Pam character is hung on the meat hook, you know, people think they see that meat hook pierce flesh and come out the other side of it, you know, but you never see that. And today, I think, you know, most filmmakers, you would see that in dramatic fashion. [00:21:21] Speaker A: Oh, start to finish. [00:21:25] Speaker B: We stole that scene, incidentally, the whole, almost whole hog from Frankenstein. I think it was the 31 version where there's a scene where the Frankenstein character hangs a butcher on a meat hook, but it's all out of frame. You know, you don't see it happen, but what you do see, and what arrested us was you see the effect of the weight of the body hanging onto that hook. [00:21:48] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It hurts to watch. [00:21:52] Speaker B: Yes. [00:21:53] Speaker D: Grave robbing in Texas is this hour's top news story. [00:21:56] Speaker A: Eventually, Levy Isaacs would become one of Toby's go to cinematographers. But interestingly, Levy started in the film business. That's what he does in Chainsaw as a voiceover artist, reading the news over the radio. [00:22:10] Speaker D: The way that happened was, is that I knew Kim Henkel. Kim Henkel was Toby's co writer. And he asked me to do that because at the time, I, you know, I had started in a local radio and television station, and I was doing a lot of radio reading the newscast, and basically, that's all I did, was read a newscast, and it was a very typical newscast in the background that would be. That would fit right into Texas. [00:22:37] Speaker A: So you have a relationship with Kim Hinkle, right? And Kim Hinkle. The relationship with Kim Hinkle is. Your introduction to Toby is my. [00:22:46] Speaker D: That's exactly right. When I got to LA, you know, that first movie that I did at Roger Corman, the first person I call was Toby Hooper. And. And, you know, he. I mean, this is before, you know, the. The VCR and the three quarter inch, or about the beginning of it. The only way to show it to him is he had to come down to the studio and look at it on the screen, which is the best way to look at it. So. And he did, you know, and I'm very grateful to him for that. It was. [00:23:15] Speaker A: What was his. What were his thoughts? [00:23:19] Speaker D: He liked the work, you know. I mean, it was a comedy, so it wasn't a lot of dramatic lighting, but it was very well photographed, in his opinion. So, you know, he had confidence in me at that point because it was on film. I mean, God, the camera that they had at Corman, you could hardly see through it. It was horrible. It was just. I mean, it was just. You had to strain your eye to see, for this thing was so old. An old b air flex bl. It was just horrible. [00:23:51] Speaker E: Wow. [00:23:52] Speaker C: That was part of the test that Roger would put you through, you know, if you really needed to see through the camera or not. [00:23:57] Speaker B: It's true. [00:24:00] Speaker C: He felt I was overrated. What do you need to look? [00:24:03] Speaker A: Toby is a great shooter. He really had a great eye. [00:24:07] Speaker D: Well, you know, that's what I noticed about him. I mean, you know, he had the big reputation in Austin, Texas. I was going to the university and I was following him and some of the people that surrounded him. He did these great commercials, in particular, political commercials, one for a senator, and all they had was like, a wheelchair, but they were doing this thing about smoke filled rooms. And the ending shot was this just great storytelling shot where the door closes and then the moat goes into a whirlwind. That was the ending shot. I mean, I just thought that was just so special. And, I mean, it just tells the story of these backroom deals. I mean, he was just really. I mean, he was a brilliant cinematographer. [00:24:53] Speaker A: Case in point, the swingshot. Pam and Kirk have discovered the house because that's what people do in horror movies. Kirk has wandered inside because they wouldn't come to the door Pam waits for a moment on the swing outside, and then she heads for the house. The camera starts beneath the swing. It follows her to the house. [00:25:15] Speaker D: Levy Isaacs, he oftentimes used wide angle, enclosed like that, you know, to go under that swing and create that dramatic move. And, you know, and that was one of the things that I started copying from him. [00:25:28] Speaker A: The stories of production hardships from the Texas Chainsaw massacre set our legend. It sounds like a hellacious experience. It was hot when you got into the house. It was even hotter. The humidity was terrible. There was no air conditioning. The set deck had been done with real live animal parts. [00:25:54] Speaker B: Yes, yes, that's true. We were shooting during the day, of course, so we had the windows blacked out. And of course, you know, the Texas heat in August and the film lights and the humidity. [00:26:12] Speaker A: And the humidity. [00:26:17] Speaker B: Yeah. No, it was. [00:26:20] Speaker C: They were able to save on the caterer. [00:26:28] Speaker B: That's why nobody gained any weight. [00:26:30] Speaker A: The leatherface costume, apparently, because there was just one. There was just one. There were three masks, but really just the one costume. So there was no, really, there was no way to wash it because it couldn't dry in time. You were shooting seven days a week. So Gunnar wasn't able to change. He wore the same outfit for the whole. For the duration of the shoot without it ever being washed. And what I've read is that the stink was so terrible towards the end that really no one wanted to stand near the man. Is this true? [00:27:10] Speaker B: You know, I don't recall it quite like that, but I think, you know, at that point in the, in the process, you know, there were so many competing odors. But his would have blended with the general atmosphere. Let me tell you the background to the last few days of the shoot. The character played by John Dugan, the grandfather, you know, he was 19 year old kid. And we had prosthetic masks on that were. Had been made by a local, uh, uh, plastic surgeon, dear. [00:27:48] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:27:50] Speaker B: Who, uh, you know, had a little interest in, in film. And he made these masks for us, but they were in multiple parts. There wasn't. Wasn't a single thing they put in the place. So multiple pieces had to be basically glued on. [00:28:06] Speaker A: Oh, dear. [00:28:07] Speaker B: And we had three, three different ones. So at the end of the shoot, we were on the last mask and we just had to keep shooting till we got him shot out or we were in trouble. So we shot better than 24 hours, almost 30 hours in that house straight. [00:28:30] Speaker A: Oh my God. Oh my God. [00:28:33] Speaker B: So, you know, odor after a point, you know, becomes incidental, you know, because the heat was the worst of it in. In that house with the windows blacked out, no ac, the lights and all of that. [00:28:47] Speaker A: Here's something neither Gil nor I knew about our friend Levy. He covered Chainsaw as a journalist, covered. [00:28:53] Speaker D: Them as a story shooting when they were out on location. I went out and. Clever. That was another, you know, intro to Toby went out and did stories about the shooting of it in particular. I remember I shot the ending where, you know, black Maria comes down the road and all that. [00:29:13] Speaker A: Maybe Toby's skill as a filmmaker bit him in the ass. His craft convinced everyone that his movie was far bloodier than it was. Jason Stein is one of the dads from the crypt. [00:29:24] Speaker E: Texas Chainsaw. Such a more nuanced movie than just leatherface running around chopping people up with a chainsaw. In fact, for a movie called a Texas Chainsaw massacre, only one person actually gets chainsawed. I'm going to reference our friend Chelsea Rebecca from dead me. She did an amazing podcast episode, very well researched, very nuanced about a lot of the theories and things happening there. So I'm cribbing from her a lot because I re listened to that yesterday. But it's really, to me, that movie is really about consuming consumerism, both literally and figuratively, about how society consumes the youth, especially coming off of the Vietnam war, how commercialism consumes your money, your time, your blood, sweat, and tears. And these group of youths run into this family of people that are like an inverted family. Um, they don't have any internal figures. They don't have any. [00:30:25] Speaker A: They are consumers. They're consumers of other humans. [00:30:28] Speaker E: Exactly. Because their jobs got consumed by the larger market, their way of life got consumed. The only thing they only way they have to survive is now to consume people. There's just so much happening under the skin and literally under the skin, where leatherface is also consuming the people, not just digesting, but also on his facade. And all their furniture is made out of the bones that they found other, other dug up or people that they've already killed. So they're. They're kind of upcycling people. They take in literal people into their ecosystem of living. [00:31:03] Speaker A: Dad from the crypt, Armando Aguilar. [00:31:05] Speaker F: Question about the movie being about meat. That's an interesting statement. I've never heard him, I've never heard before. Um, because going back to Jason's comment on consumerism, I think it fits right in there, you know, almost in a Soylent green type of way, that we are just pieces of meat going through the grinder, day in and day out. And at the end of the day, we're just. We're just here to be consumed. I saw a Texas Chainsaw massacre the first time. I think I was seven. I was way too young to be watching that movie. But my mom was in the horror and let me watch movies that I probably shouldn't watch. [00:31:39] Speaker A: Your mom let you watch Texas Chainsaw Mandez. [00:31:42] Speaker F: My first memory of ever seen a horror film was actually walking in on her watching nightmare on Elm street two and the transformation scene where Jesse, where freddy's coming out of Jesse's body. So to me, that's still on the most terrifying moments of cinema. But even as a kid, when I first saw this movie, so I wasn't obviously looking at the different layers he was trying to put in there, for me, it was at seven years old. You don't really pick up on that. But for me, the most terrifying character in the movie was the, was the, who they call the old man was the patriarch of the family. Yeah, because you can just tell he's got this sinister. You brought up how Leatherface fits in this family dynamic. And for me, it's all like he's terrified. He's terrified for him to be this, this, you know, this larger than life, gruesome character. He's terrified of this scrawny, you know, it's just the scrawny or older man because of the way he treats everyone in the family. [00:32:33] Speaker E: Also, if you think about the family as a larger symbol of, like, the grandpa being the old way, Leatherface is kind of the, quote, new blood, but he has no face, or he's not willing to show his face. So it's kind of a, an idea of a generation that's trying to figure out what it is compared to what's come before it, which, you know, the sixties into the seventies was all about, you know, shifting. Speaking of Gunnar Hansen, I ran into him very randomly once in the movie theater. It was just a small theater outside of Portland, Oregon. And I think he had a movie that was the premiering of the kind of road showing. But I'm coming out of another movie and I'm a big guy. I'm six foot four. So when I see another big person that makes me feel small, I stop and take notice. And we kind of did, like, acknowledge each other and there's something. And somehow I just knew that that person is something. There's more than this person. [00:33:26] Speaker A: The movie's success at the end of the day, are you surprised by it or not surprised. Kim Henkel. [00:33:36] Speaker B: Well, you know, when we were doing this, you know, we were trying to make a movie that end of the day, we would like to see in the sense, take us for a ride. Don't disappoint us. We could never have anticipated it. I mean, who could, you know? I mean, this is remarkable. This movie that we made on, you know, bubble gum and bailing wire, you know, has come to be what it is. And we could never have imagined that we were trying to do something that, you know, would satisfy us. In a way. We were very much helped by the fact that we were not Hollywood mainstream. And the film did not go through that process of imagination that Hollywood projects inevitably go through in that process. So we didn't have those filters. You know, we had some producers at one point, believe it or not, they felt like some of the dinner table stuff was too funny and were afraid on the page. They thought it was too funny. We did a lot of things very differently than you do on a normal set. So there was, you know, a lot of wild shooting, you know, handheld stuff. And really because of, you know, our inexperience and all of that, we were very lucky that we did that. And I think Toby very smartly did that because he felt like if he had everything covered, then he was going to, at the end of the day, be able to put something together, even if it was just piece by piece. And that's what really wound up happening. I think there are probably ten times as many cuts in that film as there are in the average film. Toby actually did a lot of the final editing work on it. You know, Larry Carroll and and Sally Richardson, you know, did the lion's share of that work. But, you know, Toby did a lot of detail stuff, too, you know, to get it exactly to the peak he wanted. And without that, I don't think it would have been what it, what it, what it, what it is. And I think, you know, that. I think a lot of films, if they had that kind of care and attention, would be a lot better. Chainsaw initially, it was so vilified, you know, that appearances in it, you know, according to our cast, were, you know, an issue for them. And that was generally the case. We were pretty much vilified when we first came out. And, you know, we came and went, you know, we were gone. We were done. We thought it was overdevelop. And then, you know, a few kind of reviews snuck out. We got invited to Kahn's Fortnite director's fortnight, and then ultimately, when Bryanston went under and we were trying to chase them down, new line acquired it, and they re released it in 81. And for many people, that was their first exposure to it. We made a deal with them, and we got a few bucks upfront money, but that was essentially it. And we weren't the only ones. I mean, they acquired a number of properties and the same fate for all of them. [00:37:03] Speaker A: Indeed, indeed. [00:37:04] Speaker B: Then when we tried to get it back, they assigned it to another entity, and then that entity assigned it further to another entity. So it was a long train we had to chase to. To finally get it back, and we really didn't get it fully back in our hands until after the. After the remake was made. [00:37:25] Speaker A: Okay, so jump forward a bunch of years to haunted lives and tales from the crypt. [00:37:30] Speaker C: When we got together to do tales from the crypt, and we decided, you know, who better, really, who better than Toby Hooper to do an episode of Tales from the Crypt? And so we asked him to do it. And it's the dead weight episode with. [00:37:45] Speaker A: Whoopi Goldberg, James Remar, Vanity, and John Reese Davies. [00:37:50] Speaker C: Right. [00:37:51] Speaker A: Toby had a great first shot right in mind. And it starts off, there's James, Remar, and Vanity, and they're having sex. Vanity is on top of James, and it's a tropical setting. The shot starts on the. There's a mosquito netting over the bed, and it tops. The shot. Started at the very top of the mosquito netting, then moving down the netting, and then Vanity sat up into the shot, you realize, oh, that's what the noise is. They're having sex. And slowly, then at one point, vanity would orgasm, and then she'd lie down on James. They'd have a little bit of conversation, and then James would get up, walk out of shot. Cut. [00:38:37] Speaker D: Right. [00:38:38] Speaker A: It was a great shot. [00:38:39] Speaker E: Yeah. [00:38:40] Speaker A: There were a couple of timing things, and actors were going to have to get their lines right, had great difficulty getting. It. Spawns twice, three, four times. Always something screwing up. [00:38:52] Speaker D: And everything has to be perfect on a shot like that. And Gil loves those shots. I remember that. [00:38:57] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But finally, you know, we're not getting it. And a time comes when you got to say, okay, you know, we only have so much time for art. Let's just. Just cover it and, you know, so we can cut the damn thing together. [00:39:10] Speaker D: Right? [00:39:10] Speaker A: And Toby said, please, just one more, one more, one more. And I remember begging Gil. And Gil relenting. Okay, one man. [00:39:20] Speaker D: I remember the pressure for sure. [00:39:23] Speaker C: Me too. [00:39:27] Speaker A: We roll, and Toby yells, action. And we start down the shot begins. We're moving down, and Toby El. [00:39:35] Speaker C: Vanity. [00:39:36] Speaker A: And vanity sits up into the shot, and she's doing, doing. And they shouts, now come. And she orgasms and she lies down and they begin their dialogue. And, man, everyone's nailing it, nailing it, nail it. Great, great, great. Finally, it looks like we're going to get it. And finally, James Remar gets up to get out of bed, and as he gets out of bed to go to cross through the frame, his erect penis pops up into the bottom of the shot. [00:40:00] Speaker D: I remember that. Oh, yeah. I remember that. [00:40:03] Speaker A: Yeah. And as we were all watching it on the monitor, we all thought, I saw that. No, I could not possibly have seen that. Please don't. We could not have seen that. And when we. We all. I don't know. Did we have the ability to do playback back then? [00:40:24] Speaker D: I don't think so. [00:40:25] Speaker B: We must. [00:40:26] Speaker C: Did we? [00:40:27] Speaker D: I don't think so. [00:40:28] Speaker A: No, I don't think so. So we really had to be honest with ourselves and say, you know, his penis popped up into the bottom of the frame, and Toby was just beside himself, like, oh, my God. No, no, no, please. And we relented. One more take. And that one. That one went. But it was. [00:40:47] Speaker D: Right. Yeah. What did he do? Did he have to turn to his back to the camera to get out of bed? And that's what. How he got away with it. [00:40:55] Speaker A: Well, no, ultimately, we did it one more time. [00:40:57] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:40:58] Speaker A: And he was able to. You know, we pointed out to James he was going to have to control himself a little bit. [00:41:07] Speaker C: I think. Toby did adjust the camera move with you. [00:41:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:41:10] Speaker C: Every day we would. We would usually have lunch with the director, basically, to find out, you know, the ad would tell us where we were. But I wanted to know from the director's point of view how he felt. And, you know, we always were up against the time and money, and so we. [00:41:27] Speaker A: Everybody got five days of prep and five days to shoot. No exceptions. [00:41:32] Speaker C: Right. And what we would do is we would make sure that in the writing, which I don't think most people realize or recognize that in the writing, we would write them for five days. We would board them. We would talk to the directors and say, can you shoot these in five days? And if they would say no, we would go back and rewrite it. And that's how we were able to keep everything on budget. Well, Toby agreed to it. And I think it was the third day of shooting. We stopped for lunch, and I over and I sit down next to him, having already spoken to the ad who came running into my office saying there was a huge problem. I sat down next to Toby to say, hey, what's going on? And he was, he was, he was in a, in a state. He was just. I don't know what to say to you. I don't know what happened. I lost this morning. I said, toby, toby, calm down. Calm down. Stop. Eat your lunch. And now tell me what happened. Well, I, I know that the opening shot for the show, I spent too much time and I'm way behind now. And now it's lunchtime, and you guys let me get that shot. I spent too much time and now I have nine shots to get after lunch, and there's no way in 6 hours I can get nine shots. And I don't know what to do. And I said, okay, toby, just relax and have your lunch. Tell me exactly where you are. And he told me, and I said, okay, after lunch, you're going to go back into this room and you're going to only shoot in that direction, the way we're set up. You're not going to turn around. He said, okay, okay, I can do that. And I said, and I'm going to go upstairs and Alan and I are going to talk about the script, and we're going to find out what we can do. And I'm going to come down in 20 minutes, and I'm going to give you perhaps a solution. And if you like that solution, and if you like that solution, we'll do it. And if you don't like that solution, I'm not going to argue with you, but I'm going to go back upstairs, and Alan and I are going to spend another 20 minutes trying to figure out another way of finishing this. And I will come down, perhaps with an idea of how many shots if I were doing it. But I'm not going to say to you, you have to use those shots. I'm going to say to you, throw it out. But this is a way we can finish the day's work. And he said, okay, okay, but I can go back and I can finish where I'm shooting. I said, yeah, just calm down and have lunch. And then you and I went upstairs, and I came down in 20 minutes. And I said to Toby, okay, where are you now? He goes, I finished everything shooting in this direction, but I do owe a close up on the girl this way. And I said, okay, how long will that take to get us? I talked to the DP. He said, ten minutes, maybe 15. I said, fine, do it. I said, however, after that shot, this is what I'm suggesting. You know that set that's next to us that we built and we painted and we dressed and we lit. You're not going into that set. And I'm not. I'm not mad because I'll use that set and Alan and I will figure it out and we'll write something else for some. [00:44:40] Speaker A: What was supposed to happen was that, uh, James Remar's character and Whoopi Goldberg's character. We're going to search it. [00:44:47] Speaker C: Yes. [00:44:48] Speaker A: We're going to search that set. Looking for the pearl which was inside John Rhys Davies. John Rhys Davies's gut. [00:44:55] Speaker C: Right? So I said, we're not going into the other set. And Toby said, but, but, but we have to go into the other set. We're supposed to hide the. The pearl. The pearl gets hidden in that room. I said, okay, okay. You got to just quiet down and listen to me and don't talk. And then after I say, I'm finished, think about it for 2 seconds and then talk. Okay? And so I said, you're not going to go into other room. He stays in this room. He swallows the pearl. [00:45:28] Speaker A: He has swallowed the pearl in the past. [00:45:31] Speaker C: Right? And I said, and on insert day, which doesn't cost your episode any money, because I'm doing a bunch of episodes for inserts on insert day. And you can be there to shoot it if you like. I see it as a medium shot. Cameras pushing in. A hand comes into frame. There's a cadaver on a table. You hear squishy, squishy, squishy. And you see a knife enter frame, and it cuts the cadaver on the side of the body. A hand goes into the body and pulls the pearl out the camera. And I stopped and I said, so that's how we do that. What do you think? And his eyes were flashing back and forth and back and forth. And I said, just calm down. Just think about it for a second. And as I said, if you don't like it, I'm not going to argue with you. I'm going to go upstairs and we'll figure something else out. And he goes, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. This is better. This is actually better. I mean, the storytelling is better. I said, well, you know, sometimes it's a win win situation. And I said, and here. Here's a shot list. I can do it in six shots without very much of a problem. We could definitely make it in 6 hours, probably even less. If you don't like those shots, throw them out of. I have no ego about this. I don't care. You do what you want. Just make sure we don't go overtime. And that's how we made the day. And that experience was really interesting because Toby never forgot that experience. He used to always remind me years later, he would say, I've worked with a lot of producers. I've never had anybody do that. I've had people come to me and say, you have 6 hours and I'm going to close you down, and you better figure it out, you know, or you know. And he said, you didn't ever. You never did that. You never threatened me. You always came up with solutions and always said to me, if I don't like them, there are other solutions. And I said, yeah, but that's how you get the best work out of everybody, I think. And I said, but he never forgot that. He always remembered that. [00:47:42] Speaker A: Dead weight's a good episode, but not a great one. I blame the script. Still, Toby's episode has fans. Jason Stein from dads from the Crypt. [00:47:51] Speaker E: In his tales from the crypt episode has one of the grossest scenes in the whole show that's known for being gross out. [00:47:59] Speaker A: Which scene are you referring to? Jay? [00:48:01] Speaker D: I think. [00:48:01] Speaker E: Is it. James Remar is putting his hands inside Jonathan Reese Davis. [00:48:07] Speaker A: Jon Reese Davis. [00:48:08] Speaker E: His guts to get out the, um. What was it? Was it. Was it key or pearl? [00:48:14] Speaker A: Pearl. [00:48:15] Speaker E: He's got blood. He's got blood. Worms. You can see the. His chest is just covered with, like, worms under the skin. [00:48:21] Speaker C: Oh, and you found that. Gross. [00:48:24] Speaker B: Oh, my goodness. [00:48:25] Speaker C: And here I thought you were a horror monger. [00:48:28] Speaker E: Oh, I. Gross in the way. I love it. [00:48:31] Speaker A: And what about the rest of Toby's work? [00:48:34] Speaker E: One of his lesser appreciated movies in the larger, uh, realm is funhouse. That opening scene is probably one of the best opening scenes in horror because it's. It's referencing psycho, it's referencing Halloween, it's referencing Giallo, it's referencing everything universal with all the posters and everything. It's kind of like everything you could all want in like a two minute sequence. But even again, we're talking about his craftsmanship. There is probably one of the best wrecking shots, kind of where it starts off on the boy leaving the tent, and then it kind of zooms back and you don't understand, like, how long this is going for, and it starts zooming up to, you're higher than the ferris wheel. You start. You start on the ground with this boy, then you're suddenly, like, up in the sky. And I had to look up how he did that, and they found 150 foot crane that's, like, gyroscopic, that, like, had 350 foot segments that each, like, smoothly came into each other and, like, again, fun house. You know, it's a carny horror movie. You don't need that kind of shot. But that's what Toby wanted to do. There's a lot of dichotomies in Toby's movies about suburban, urban, rural, city, Yongle. Because, again, you have. What always cracks me up in Poltergeist is the Craig T. Nelson's character is a slightly older mandehethere who's reading a Reagan biography, or he's reading a Reagan. [00:49:57] Speaker B: Now. [00:49:57] Speaker E: I can remember the name of it. He's got a much younger wife, and he has a kid who's, like, not that much younger than his wife. So it's like, there's something. Again, I can't parse it out completely, but there's something going on there. And again, they're building their foundation on an indian bare ground. So again, we're layering. Again, it's layering things. And of course, they build a pool for their own luxury, but then it interacts with what's come before them. I don't think that stuff is there by mistake. [00:50:28] Speaker A: There was a lot of conversation about how much Toby directed it and how much Spielberg may have contributed to directing it. I don't know that. I think that's horribly unfair to Toby. [00:50:44] Speaker E: Yeah, I was reading about that, too, because I was doing a little background. Spielberg did a couple, like, second unit pickup shots just to help out. And then I think that got. I think that's how that got kind of completed. [00:50:55] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's so because if you look at the rest of Toby's earth, God, the guy was such a great visual filmmaker. He was the perfect choice for that movie. That should have been where Toby suddenly exploded. Armando Aguilar. [00:51:15] Speaker F: It feels like a lot of mainstream media who didn't want to respect, you know, poltergeist was a very respected film. And it feels like, you know, they kind of attached Tobe Hooper to be the grind guy, the grindhouse guy. And they almost didn't want to give him that. That spotlight to show that this guy could make such a fantastic movie. Even though, you know, for us horror nerds, all of his movies are not all, but most of the movies are pretty fantastic. [00:51:35] Speaker E: Right? I mean, I will. I will say that, yeah, there's definitely some Spielberg influence in that movie, but that's nothing. There's nothing wrong with that. And that's by design. That, that's a feature, not a flaw. [00:51:47] Speaker A: It's a collaborative work. You know, it's a great combination of Toby's mentality and the Spielberg sensibility. Wow. [00:51:56] Speaker F: And I mean, it makes sense, right? If you, no matter where you work at, you want to please your boss and you're going to do some cool little things and, you know, everyone was, who wasn't a Spielberg fan. Right. Of course, would be. There'd be a little bit of his fingerprints on there. There should be. [00:52:08] Speaker E: Yeah, but I mean, as the scene of a guy peeling off his own, having his face peeled off, that's not, that's not Spielberg. That's pure Toby. And again, the meat crawling we got. It's all about the meat. Another movie I want to touch on is a life force, which is probably his most ambitious and biggest movie. It's by, he said it was his biggest budget. His biggest mostly got paid for any movie, at least up to the point of whatever interview I was watching. [00:52:33] Speaker B: Oh, wow. [00:52:35] Speaker E: It's science fiction. It's got like spaceships, it's got zombies, it's got vampires, it's got miniature destruction everywhere. And unfortunately, from everything I can tell that they took the editing away from him and they really lost something in that because supposedly his version was about 20 minutes longer and the golan production company, Canon, wanted to cut it down. So it feels like a Toby movie that was kind of hacked into a little bit. [00:53:03] Speaker A: And then of course, there are the sequels that really aren't. And the reboots. Mando is a huge chainsaw two fan. [00:53:10] Speaker F: I love, love, love that movie. It's, it's, it also has, in my opinion, one of the best jump scares in the history of horror, which when, when they're in the, when chop Top, Bill Moseley is in the recording studio and he's just, it's very tense moment when he's talking with stretch the dj, and Leatherface just comes running out of the back room with a chainsaw. And because it's, it's one thing I thought Tobe was great with too, was how he used sound in his movies. Because one thing that made me so uncomfortable as a kid watching Texas Chainsaw massacre was that you didn't have like the traditional horror soundtrack. You didn't have those peaks and valleys. And one of my favorite scenes in the original is when they're pushing Franklin in the wheelchair, who's also one of the most unlikable heroes or good guys in the history of horror. And all you hear is the sound of the chainsaw right as it goes through them. And they did the same thing in Texas, too, where you don't, you're not hearing anything. There's no, there's no soundtrack going, and then all you see is Leatherface run out and you hear the chainsaw. And that scene, I was like, I didn't see that till later in life, but I think I was like, 17 or 18 when I watched that movie the first time. Scared the crap out of me. And Dennis Hopper is going full. [00:54:15] Speaker E: Yeah. [00:54:16] Speaker F: With a chainsaw fight. [00:54:17] Speaker B: Like, come on. [00:54:18] Speaker F: Like, how do you not love that movie? Well, he talked about how he wanted the original to be a black comedy, but then the filming conditions were so rough. When you watched it back, he goes, oh, this is terrifying. This isn't a black comedy at all. I think that's why he went more over the top with the second one, which was totally fine. Like, it was, it's kind of cool to have because I don't think it was. I mean, I would like to go back to that time period and see what people thought about it when it came out because it was definitely a departure. Like a huge departure from the first. It's like when a band you love just change the styles. And I think it's probably really alienating at the time. I know even now people will argue that, you know, there are people that hate that movie because of how campy it is. And I'm just like, no, that's what, that's the beauty of it. And that's the beauty of Tobey Hooper right there. [00:54:56] Speaker A: Kim Henkel also has thoughts about the sequel. [00:54:59] Speaker B: I even made one of them, unfortunately. But I think they're all generally, you know, like most sequels, they just, they're rarely satisfying. You know, I haven't seen one that I really felt was really even particularly interesting. You know, the, the one Toby did is interesting in a particular way, but it's not a scary film. You know, it's funny. [00:55:24] Speaker A: I think it's, it's the, the dueling chainsaws is hilarious. That's such a funny scene. [00:55:32] Speaker B: Yeah, it went in and bought into that, that side of it first, for sure. For that reason. It's probably, to me, the most watchable or most interesting of them. But, yeah, it's obviously a different beast. [00:55:50] Speaker E: He kind of invented probably indy horror to some degree. Um, they kind of do it or diy horror. Um, just grabbing a camera, going out in the middle of Texas, you know, they only had one suit for leatherface. So he just wore that every day. And, you know, there's just so many, not even urban legends, but just, you know, great stories that came out of that. And maybe, okay, Avenger might not be the way, but the popular he popularized kind of that method. There was no Tobey Hooper. It would have been necessary to invent him. Like, somebody else would have had to done that eventually. Very few his movies have any catharsis. In the end, it was one of. [00:56:28] Speaker F: The first movies I remember seeing that I, you know, because you always expect, especially when you're younger, when you watch a horror film, that you're gonna have the final girl. You're gonna have some kind of goodness prevail. And that's when she doesn't win in that movie. Because even though, yes, she survives, you know the tagline who will survive and what will be left of them? Like, what is left of her? She's a shell. There's no way. You're going to need a lot of therapy after that. [00:56:51] Speaker B: Kim Henkel, sure you guys are aware of the relationship he had late in life that turned sour? [00:56:58] Speaker C: Yeah, we chatted a lot about that because he always felt that I was relatively stable in my relationship. I've been married over 30 years to the same woman, and he knew her and loved her, and he would always occasionally saying, you know, how. How do you do that? [00:57:15] Speaker B: As Toby tended to do when he emerges from those kinds of things. Then he starts, you know, contacting, you know, his old friends. So, you know, sort of about a year before he died, you know, we started, you know, having, you know, much more of a, you know, conversation back and forth, you know, from time to time. So that was great. I was. I was. I was really glad that that happened. And I was, of course, shocked by his death. I thought he'd outlive us all, frankly. You know, it was just so ornery. I think the best time we ever had together was working on that script. We had to go out and find nickels and dimes for friends and families and connections and put things together. And the whole process of putting that together and getting that off the ground. I mean, once we started shooting, of course, it was hell on wheels, but up until that time, it was a story, and things really, actually remarkably seemed to fall into place. [00:58:12] Speaker C: There was a time when Toby and I would meet at the Musso Frank's for dinner, and Ernest Dickerson heard about this, and he said, well, I want to join that. And so we said, okay, come on. And so my wife would come with us, and we would have dinner, the four of us, a sort of kind. [00:58:31] Speaker A: Of Algonquin roundtable there. At Musou. [00:58:33] Speaker C: Yeah, we called it the Alan Quail Club. And we would meet at 07:00 at Muso Frank's. We would get the corner table in the bar. We would eat, we would drink, we would talk, we would laugh, we would joke until somebody from Mousseau Franks would come over and say, guys, it's 01:00 in the morning. We're thinking of closing up. Is there any chance we could have you leave? [00:59:00] Speaker A: Time to go home now. [00:59:01] Speaker C: And they used to close at, I think, ten or eleven, but they never bothered us and we never even thought about the time. We were just so involved with our conversation and the fun we were having. And we did that a number of times. It didn't happen very often. Was like maybe once every three months when we're all in town and we're all free and available, we would have this great, great evening. I'll never forget those evenings. They were some of my fondest memories of Hollywood. [00:59:28] Speaker A: You talked to Toby just before he died? [00:59:31] Speaker C: Yeah, you know, we chatted before he went to England. He was going to England for some horror convention. And we were talking on the phone. He said, I'm going to be away and I'll call you when I get back and we'll figure something out. I said, great. Enjoy, have fun. Travel safely. He sent me, I'm not sure if it was a text message or an email, I don't remember. But something while he was in England saying he's having a good time, looking forward to getting together when we get back. I probably messaged him back something. And then I kind of knew when he was coming back. I wasn't sure the specific date, and I didn't hear from him and I didn't even think anything about it. And then I think it was the next day, I was looking at the New York Times and it says, toby Hooper passed away. I think it was in his sleep. And, you know, when he came back from. From England, I actually. I think we did have a conversation and he was very tired. And I said, of course you're tired. You know, with the time change and the, you know, all the excitement over there and speaking, just rest up and take it easy for a few days and then we'll get together. And. [01:00:44] Speaker A: Had he been having. Had he been having any health issues that you were aware of that he had talked about? [01:00:50] Speaker C: No, not that I was aware of. Not that I was aware of. It just seemed that he was tired from this trip. And that was it. That was the last time. And I just couldn't believe it. I mean, when I read it in the newspaper the next day or so, I was like, what? And I think I started calling some mutual friends to say, this isn't true. Right? This isn't happening. [01:01:12] Speaker A: It's unfortunate he didn't get more respect. [01:01:16] Speaker C: From the business, I suppose. I suppose. But I think the people who cared, he did get respect. I mean, yeah, there was a controversy about Poltergeist. Yeah, there was controversy about is he a real filmmaker or not? But I think a lot of people in the business fall prey to that kind of, whether it's out of jealousy or whether it's out of reality or. It doesn't really matter. I mean, we're tough skinned, and Toby had a very thick skin on him as well. And I think that's really what you need. [01:01:50] Speaker A: Hey, at the end of the day, you know, 100 years from now, as they're still looking back at things that we've all created, I bet you they're still talking about Leatherface. [01:02:00] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. Not only me, not only will they be speaking about Leatherface, you and I, 100 years from now, we'll still be talking about Leatherface face. Toby Hoover. [01:02:09] Speaker B: Indeed. [01:02:10] Speaker C: This was a great experience for me because to relive my time with Toby is just really special. Really special. [01:02:18] Speaker A: Thank you for joining us, everyone. [01:02:20] Speaker F: We'll see you next week. [01:02:24] Speaker A: The how not to make a movie podcast is executive produced by me, Alan Katz, by Gil Adler, and by Jason Stein. Our artwork was done, done by the amazing Jody Webster and Jason. Jody, along with Mando, are all the hosts of the fun and informative dads from the Crypt podcast. Follow them for what my old pal the Crypt keeper would have called terrorific crypt content.