S3E22: The Reluctant Vampire Speaks!

[00:00:00] Speaker A: This podcast is a collaboration between costart and Touchstone Productions and the dads from the Crypt podcast. [00:00:15] Speaker B: Lovely, lovely, lovely. Over the lips, over the pans. Say goodbye to hunger pangs. [00:00:29] Speaker A: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the how not to make a movie podcast. I'm Alan Katz. Gil will join us shortly. But first, it's time for the hit the like button. But better yet, subscribe dance by subscribing, you'll stay hip to all the latest news about are you afraid? Flesh eating ghouls? For a long time, we humans have been deeply afraid of vampires and zombies. [00:00:54] Speaker B: Sen or paramedics. [00:00:58] Speaker A: Fair enough. Vampires and zombies are scary. But neither vampires nor zombies are real. Plush eating ghouls, on the other hand, are real. They've been living in our shadow for thousands of years, hunting us, feasting on us, treating us like food. But some ghouls are tired of living in the shadow of their food. Those ghouls have decided it's time to leave the shadow and put us in our place where we belong. On the menu, it's an eat or be eaten world, flavored by fear, filled with the monster we should have been afraid of all along. Flesh eating. [00:01:37] Speaker B: Cool. [00:01:37] Speaker A: Are you afraid? Better be coming soon. When I was a kid just beginning to acquire a taste for cinema, one of the first movies that gave me that taste was Stanley Kubrick's A Clockwork orange. But there was another Malcolm McDowell movie that struck me even more around about the same Lindsay Anderson's if. When I was 16, I took part in a little research study. A group of the smart kids from my high school were shown if and then asked a bunch of questions about it. The movie's about a boys military school in England and what happens when one of the students, Malcolm's character, begins to plot against the uptight upper class tophs who run the place. Malcolm's entrance into the movie is fantastic. So is the rest of his performance. In fact, his work in if is what got him cast in Clockwork Orange. As Stanley Kubrick said when he saw if, we found our Alix. As I've said here frequently, one of the great thrills of making tales from the crypt for HBO was getting to work with actors and directors and everyone in between from all those movies I'd fallen in love with. While I was falling in love with the movies, Clockwork Orange was a double header. I also got to work with and became quite close with Aubrey Morris. He plays Mister Deltoid, Alex's counselor and parole officer. Aubrey appeared in Bordello of Blood Malcolm epitomized our approach to casting Crypt. We always wanted to cast against type, especially with our star. Malcolm was still building a career playing dark characters and villains when we cast him later in his career. He went on to play Sauron in Star Generations. That's the guy who kills James T. Kirk. You can't get any more villainous than that. Well, we cast Malcolm as the reluctant vampire, a vampire who, frankly, hates killing people. So he gets a job as a night watchman in a blood bank. It's a very sweet episode, actually, in addition to talking crypt and clockwork. And if we'll touch on another part of Malcolm's canon, Caligula. Here on the podcast, we've focused on Caligula as an example of both how not to make a movie and how not to make porn. Boy, does Malcolm have great Caligula stories. But before we get to all of that, we're going to talk a little footy first. All of our episodes are special in one way or another. All our babies are special. They're special, but this one is special. Special. We're talking to a legendary actor, Malcolm McDowell. Now, as we started up to have our conversation with Malcolm, we bumped into some technical issues, and Gill was not able to participate in the conversation. He kind of came in and out, and it was a very frustrating experience for Gil. We'll put that aside. And so we're going to talk about Gill's, his relationship with Malcolm. Because you've actually known Malcolm for. Well, it preceded when we hired him on tales from the crypt. [00:04:59] Speaker C: Oh, sure, yeah, I met him. I was producing plays in New York, and my producing partner, Jack temption, was their dramaturge for Lynn Meadows Manhattan Theatre club. [00:05:10] Speaker A: Oh, wow. [00:05:11] Speaker C: They were doing a play by a czechoslovakian author. His name fails me, and Malcolm was in it. And so Jack invited me to see the play after the. After which we went out with Malcolm and the writer for something to eat or drinks. And that was my first time that Malcolm I ever met. And then we were friends from then on. I mean, we didn't see each other for years as what happens in this business, but then all of a sudden, we would see each other on the street in Manhattan or at an event or at a party or something, and it would be like, I haven't seen him in ten minutes. So it was an interesting beginning of a relationship, and it just got better and better along the way. [00:05:53] Speaker A: At the time that you met Malcolm, he was still. At what point in his career was he? Because he had that unfortunate thing happen where he hit the ground running. [00:06:07] Speaker C: I think it was like the late seventies or the early, you know, mid eighties, because we did crypt. You know what? It was like 90 with him. Right? 91. So I must. I must have met. Yeah, it must have been like 1980. We were both children, just very young guys. [00:06:27] Speaker A: So he was still. He was still feeling the, the glow of. [00:06:32] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, yeah. No, he was. He was a very well known actor, and, and I know Manhattan theater club was very, very pleased to have him in that play. [00:06:39] Speaker A: When we hired him to do tales from the crypt, when, when that suggestion came up and we cast him completely against type, of course. [00:06:47] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:06:48] Speaker A: As was. That's what we did. For me, that was incredibly exciting. I mean, tells from the crypt was such a special experience because we got to work with the icons, Kirk Douglas, Bobcus Joel, Tom Hanks, Donner, Walter Hill. [00:07:07] Speaker C: And Malcolm was right up there with them. [00:07:09] Speaker A: My God. Hey, he was clockwork orange. Clockwork orange. It was an iconic movie. Even then, it was understood that this was a great movie. It was touched by greatness. [00:07:22] Speaker C: I hadn't seen him, and I hadn't seen him for years. And so when we hired him, I was a little trepidatious, because I thought, gee, I wonder if he'll even remember me. I mean, I saw him at a play. We went out for dinner. We talked a couple of times thereafter. He's not going to bother. He's not going to remember me. And of course, we hired him. He came in and he said, hey, gil, have you been. I haven't seen you since we went out for dinner that night. So it was sort of renewed in tales from the crypt, and then subsequent to that, AbC had a show called they were revising Fantasy island, and Malcolm was the lead guy in Fantasy island. [00:07:59] Speaker A: He was the. Mister Rourke. [00:08:03] Speaker C: Yeah, he was mister Rourke. Right. [00:08:04] Speaker A: This was a darker take on Fantasy island to, when they hired him. He was not. The point of the exercise was not to duplicate. [00:08:14] Speaker B: No. [00:08:14] Speaker C: It was to take advantage. It was to take advantage of what Malcolm brings to the table, you know? And, you know, it was, it was a really, really good choice. Well, I was, I was represented in those days by Caa and, and their infinite wisdom. They decided I should be a tv director while I was waiting to do motion pictures for Warner Brothers or for Joel and for Dick. And so I got a call one day from my agent, who said, we've got a call from this show, and they want you to direct an episode, and it's in Hawaii. And because it's over the Labor Day weekend, you'll be there an extra week. And so they want to book you. And I said, guys, I'm not a tv director. I don't want to be a tv direct. And so I said, no. I got off the phone and told my wife who I'd spoken to, and she said, so you don't want to go to Hawaii for. Was it eight weeks and all expenses paid and actually get paid for being there as well? You turned that down. And I said, you want to go? You want to go to Hawaii? So I called back and I said, well, I would do it, but I need to read the script. And so they checked it out, and they called me back, and they said, well, we can't. The script isn't written yet. They can't give you the script, but this is the best they can do. If you agree to do it, when you get on the plane in Los Angeles to fly to Hawaii, the script will be on your seat, so you'll have the opportunity to read it and study it with a five hour flight to Hawaii, which I thought was total bullshit. There's no script. Of course there was a script. So I said, yes, get on a plane. There's the script. So I read the script, get off the plane. They take me right away into a production. [00:09:55] Speaker A: How was the script? [00:09:57] Speaker C: I don't know. This was the fourth episode in the very first season, so they had only done three other episodes, so they were really. [00:10:04] Speaker A: What was it as you read it? Was it a show? Well, if you had. If your name was on the script, would you have been happy or sad about that? [00:10:13] Speaker C: Listen, for me, it was like, I'm doing this because my wife wants to go to Hawaii. [00:10:20] Speaker A: What the words were, I didn't want. [00:10:22] Speaker C: To piss off my agent. So here I am. So I go into this meeting. I go into this meeting, and one thing leads to another, and they asked me his questions. And, okay, now we're going to get ready to do this. And the first thing that happened was the people who are now running Chicago med were running the show. And so they said to me, this is about a half hour before we're ready to go. They go, so what's the first shot? I said, oh, it's really simple. Feivish Finkel was in it, as was Sylvia Sidney. I was the last person to ever direct Sylvia Sidney. [00:10:53] Speaker A: You killed her. [00:10:54] Speaker C: I killed her. As we did in the one with Tim Curry. We had Monte Carlo. I was the last person. Directive on Dicarlo. So we go in, and I go, well, it's really simple. I'm going to dolly left to right, and Ivish is going to come in. He spins the globe, and then Silvio comes in, and they go, wait, wait a minute. How are you going to do that? And I was like, uh oh. What didn't I get? What? So I go, let me do it again. So we're sliding, dollying left to right, and then he comes in and spins the globe. And that takes us to Sylvia. Sylvia walks in. She goes, what? Sylvia doesn't walk. I said, what does that mean, she doesn't walk? She doesn't walk. She can only sit at the desk. So I'm at the desk, and I'm like, don't you think someone should have told me that before? Five minutes before we start shooting? So now I'm shooting. I meet Malcolm. Malcolm gives me a big hello, and we have a great remembrance of when we knew each other in New York and tales from the crypt. And now it's like the third or fourth day, and as you probably recall, better than anybody else I know, I'm very frightened when I direct. I always figure there's a better shot. If we figured out a shot, there's a better shot. And so I'm constantly beating myself up. So now we're on the fourth day of shooting, and we're setting up for a big shot, and Malcolm comes over, and actually the pA comes over and says, malcolm needs to have a word with you. I'm like, oh, God, I. And he's behind the sets. It's a private, just the two of you. And I'm figuring he's going to fire me. What else could he be talking to me privately about? So I go behind the set, and I go very sheepishly, hi, Malcolm. What's going on? And he goes, listen, I got to talk to you. We've had three other directors in this show, and they're all shit. And I want to call up ABC and speak to them and tell them to call CAA and book you for every other episode. I mean, you talk to the actors, you listen to them. You change your shots when they don't feel comfortable doing this and that, and just everyone is so delighted that you're here. I go, Malcolm, Malcolm, you don't understand. I'm frightened to death. I don't really know what I'm doing. I really don't. And so I don't think this is a good idea. And he starts laughing. He goes, yeah, you're so funny. And I go, no, no, no, I'm not being funny. I'm being really honest with you. Let me finish this episode and let me go home. And he goes, okay, sure. And with that, he picks out his cell phone and he stands there and he says, just you stand there for a second. Okay? And he calls up ABC. He gets the president of ABC on the phone and he tells him about me and he says, so I'm going to rely on you to call CAA and book him for every other episode. And he goes, okay, great, thank you. Thank you so much. And hangs up and looks at me and he goes, looks like you're going to be here every other episode. I go, Malcolm, you don't know what you're doing. This is awful. This is terrible. You're going to kill me. You're going to want to fire me. So we continue on with the show. I go back to Los Angeles and I'm booked to do charmed. One of the first episodes of the first season of Charmed, Joel gets a call from his buddies at CAA saying that I'm directing and that they want to hire me. And he gets pissed off. He calls me up. Anyway, it becomes a whole to do, and I'm directing Charmed, and I get a call from CIA saying they're really sorry, but fantasy island got canceled. And so that won't be a problem. That won't be a problem any longer. But it was Malcolm who basically said to me, you got to stay. And I said, I can't stay. I've got to go back. He goes, okay, well, you come back in two weeks. So with that, I continued my friendship. [00:14:54] Speaker A: With Malcolm and we were able to renew it with the podcast. [00:14:59] Speaker C: Yeah. And he's such an interesting guy and it's such a talented actor and has so much experience that I think our audience will really enjoy his perspective and also what he has to say. [00:15:11] Speaker A: Oh, this one. I think I said this was a special episode. Yeah, yeah, this is a special episode. You grew up near Liverpool? [00:15:22] Speaker B: Yes, yes. I mean, basically, yes. [00:15:25] Speaker A: My question is completely off topic of the movies. Are you still one of the Enfield faithful? [00:15:31] Speaker B: I am indeed. We're going through quite a rough time this year, but once you've been a boyhood fan, uh, it never leaves you. And I've passed it on to my kids. And, uh, so we all sit around at seven in the morning, you know, when it beams in from Anfield or wherever it is they're playing. [00:15:53] Speaker A: 434 30 if you know, on some mornings they're playing in the afternoon. [00:15:57] Speaker B: Yeah, well, we record it when it's 430. I'm not getting up that early unless I wake up and if I wake up I'll put it on. [00:16:03] Speaker A: But um, I've been married into a Spurs family for, for 30 years so I'm, I'm a Spurs supporter. [00:16:10] Speaker B: Yeah, well spurs, you know, I've always liked spurs but although I must say I do think that, you know, Kane is a wonderful player but he's such a diver. Get on your feet, lad. You feel like slapping him over the head with a wet fish. [00:16:27] Speaker A: I felt so badly for Liverpool this season because you're having kind of a Spurs like season. [00:16:32] Speaker B: Yeah, I guess you're right there. What Klopp has done, I think is, I think he's a genius. I think if he ran for prime minister he'd get it in a hoppy. I love the guy. I think he's an amazing human being, a beautiful man and the exact right fit for Liverpool. And he's going through a bad time but they all cheer him anyway and that's just the nature of it. We all know it's peaks and valleys, but what he's done with that team in the time he's been there has been glorious. Right. [00:17:08] Speaker A: Surely good. Last year they were amazing, simply. [00:17:12] Speaker B: But three, we've been in three championship league finals, you know, in five years. It's incredible. [00:17:19] Speaker A: Truly a very high standard to maintain. Look, doing it once, doing it a bunch of years in a row, that's the challenge. It's like our business as well. It's. Getting onto the mountain is really, really hard. The trick is staying on the mountain. [00:17:35] Speaker B: That's right. That's what we, it's not the first movie, the second and the third and the fourth. The first one we can all do, you know. Indeed that's true. It's true enough. It's the same thing in any business, I guess. [00:17:49] Speaker A: You know, let's, let's take you back to your roots for a second. If you went to boarding school from the time you were eleven. [00:17:56] Speaker B: I did, yes. I went to a, a public school, which is of course a boarding school would be. A private school would be in America, but of course it's not quite the same. The public school in England represents where the Aristos would send their sons to be educated, to go out and administer an empire. That's why they're there. [00:18:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:18:25] Speaker B: Originally, yeah. And there's many great, you know, really wonderful public schools that have great traditions. Eden, Harrow and all that. Many more than just those two. But I went to a rather minor one, but it's still, the basic principles, you know, of all around education and all getting on with your fellow man. Of course, what they don't teach is, is how to get on with women. And you'll find, I think that's why Englishmen are rather bad in situations of connecting with the fair sex. That is said, whether it's true or not, I'm not quite sure. [00:19:10] Speaker A: It also, that environment imparts a rather rugged social environment. [00:19:20] Speaker B: Well, it's hierarchical, you know, it's very much like Britain used to be, or, and I'm sure still is, I haven't lived there for a long time, so I don't really know it anymore. You know, I'm an American now and I feel very much a californian indeed. [00:19:37] Speaker A: We don't do that kind of shit in California. [00:19:39] Speaker B: No. And, you know, I. I saw a. [00:19:43] Speaker A: Note that said that you were beaten regularly in public for wayward behavior. [00:19:51] Speaker B: As the headmaster said, when asked when I got famous, he said he was naughty, but not malicious. And he was a remarkable man, I have to say this. His name was L. F. Baker and he was a remarkable man in many ways. And he did light the fire of theatre in me, and for that I am eternally grateful indeed. And he cast me in all the great parts in Shakespeare, which I played at school, all the. I mean, the best parts I could possibly play. So by the time I was 18 or 19 when I left, I'd really. I felt like, almost like a real actor, you know, because I don't care where the venue is, you still have to do it. Of course, it's not professional and it's all rather rough and everything, but the basics are the same. [00:20:52] Speaker A: Your acting was. It might not have been as refined, but you were being as honest as your instrument allowed you to at that time. [00:21:00] Speaker B: That's right, that's right. And so that when I had this girlfriend in Liverpool who was every Friday night would disappear, and she went to these elocution lessons with this lovely old lady called Misses Harold Ackerley. That was what was on a brass plate outside the crane theatre in Crane Street, Liverpool. And she was the most remarkable old lady. She was 82. I paid her every time I went to see her with an hour ten shillings, which was a lot of money out of my pay packet, really. It was a lot, though, because when you're only earning ten pounds a week to give her ten shillings, I mean, there's a lot. It was a lot. It was anyway. But I liked her enormously. I didn't learn anything from her at all. I just adored listening to her talk about her silent movie days and when she was treading the boards and doing plays, usually she did the plays on provincial tours. So she was not a, you know, top kind of actress, but she was a good working actress and very refined. I knew that she didn't understand that, you know, acting and the business had come a long way. We were now watching Albert Finney, for God's sake. She told me once that, don't forget when you're sitting in a sofa with a cup of tea on stage to hold your pinky out. And I went, yes, I'll make sure to remember that. Weirdly enough, I think maybe 20 or 30 years later, I was having dinner with these friends and they had Rita Tushingham there, who I'd never met, you know, and I kind of knew, of course, who she was, you know, she was a wonderful actress. And we were talking and I went, yes, you know, and I mentioned, I said, misses Harold Ackley. She went, oh, my God. I went to her. That's who taught me. [00:23:13] Speaker A: Oh, that's. [00:23:13] Speaker B: And I went, oh, my God, I can't even believe there are two people here. And then there was somebody else. Norma Heyman. Who? The producer, David Heyman's mom, John's ex wife. She's Norma. Lovely lady. She produced this movie called gangster number one that I did. She also was a pupil of Misses. [00:23:36] Speaker A: Harold Ackley, just short of an acting academy. [00:23:40] Speaker B: Well, what she did was she said, oh, Malcolm, you're wasting your time in Liverpool. You better go to Lambda and you better take their exams. You know, they have these audition exams that you can take from the associateship. And I said, well, what does it mean? She. Oh, you do two accents and two pieces, you know, stand up monologues. And I went, sure, fine. [00:24:06] Speaker A: Which two accents did you do? [00:24:08] Speaker B: You recall Irish. And North Hindle wakes, Yorkshire, which, of course, was second nature to me, but an Irish. And I did two pieces, I can't remember what they were. Anyway, I did them, I went down to London to do them, and I was offered a job in the professional theatre from that audition, or whatever it was, and by this man called something Hamilton. Anyway, Hamilton ran a lot of, I think, four to six repertory theaters in the provinces, in so on seaside resorts. And he offered me a job, um, to go to Shanklin and the Isle of Wight. And that's where I started my career. And funnily enough, a couple of years before me, David Hemings had also trodden that route. Wow. And so I remember talking to David about it. We went, Shanklin. Oh, my God. And, and there you are. It was amazing. [00:25:23] Speaker A: It, it's part of the, the english entertainment structure. It was certainly that you had that incredible. Like a network of theaters throughout the country. [00:25:37] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. [00:25:38] Speaker A: Like in baseball, they have minor leagues. And it created. [00:25:43] Speaker B: Oh, there were repertory theaters pretty much in every, every big town, even tiny little place like Shanklin in the Isle of Wight, had a theater on, on the pier. [00:25:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:25:57] Speaker B: And had these, you know, and so all the holidaymakers would go to the theater. Then on Sunday when it was dark, they'd have specialty acts. I remember they had Lulu, Helen Shapiro. I mean, I couldn't believe. Yeah, quite big, big act. Sandy Shaw. Big, big stuff. [00:26:18] Speaker A: I don't know Sandy Shore, but Lulu. [00:26:20] Speaker B: Oh, she was great. She was a songstress. She was known because she always did sang without her shoes on. [00:26:27] Speaker A: Sandy Shore. Oh, of course, yes. [00:26:29] Speaker B: She was barefoot. But I saw her. It's funny, I saw her being interviewed, I think, in a Beatles thing. And it was quite interesting because she said when she heard please please me, she knew the game had changed. And I thought that was really interesting coming from another singer because she'd made it before the Beatles, you know, she was like a one or two hit wonder, but she was very good and a bit like, you know, Scylla black, but not as much perky personality as her. Anyway, these are all people from my sort of youth. [00:27:09] Speaker A: Indeed. [00:27:09] Speaker B: Lulu was another one. [00:27:11] Speaker A: Sure, sure. Well, Lulu to sir with love. Gosh, that. [00:27:15] Speaker B: Ah, did Judy, Jason, poor Judy's not well said. When I watch some of my old movies, it's shocking because often I'm the only one left. And then I think of who made it, who wrote it, who photographed it. Well, I've been around a long time, so you, you. [00:27:33] Speaker A: Even when you started doing features, you, you, man, the best talent saw you. Your screen debut was supposed to be in a thing called poor cow, a Ken Loach movie. Yes, but you got cut out of that. Alas. [00:27:49] Speaker B: It was a real weird thing because I did this audition for him with Miriam Brickman, who was the number one casting director in England at the time. She cast everything. And Miriam was a big supporter of mine. I didn't really know this, but I, I went and did a kind of audition which was kind of, you know, just off the cuff kind of thing. And she loved it, from what I understood was that I was going to be playing the lead in pork owl, this Ken Loach film. I met with him fine, you know, and then the producer a guy called Joe Yanny who did a lot of terrific movies, darling, and things like that. A lot of John Schlesinger movies. He decided they needed a star. So I was bumped and Terrence Stamp was brought in and they said, oh, but don't worry, Malcolm. I mean, you, you still have a part. I went, oh, fine. You know, I mean, it was one. Didn't even care. You know, it was really weird. I suppose that because I was used to the, a sort of theater and that sort of, you know, the feelings and about the work like a theater actor. So I wasn't really thinking about the size of the part or anything like that. Anyway, didn't matter. [00:29:14] Speaker A: Still. It's like you ended up being the poor cow. [00:29:17] Speaker B: Yeah. I was cut from the movie because we only did one sequence. We were supposed to do a rain sequence outside. And if you can believe it, it didn't rain in London for two weeks. And so it was cut, but it wasn't a pleasurable experience anyway and didn't matter. And I was saved for the great one. [00:29:38] Speaker A: Knowing that we were going to have this conversation. I had not seen if, oh, God, since I was quite young. It been a long time, but it still made an incredible impression on me. [00:29:50] Speaker B: So really, to go back, it's a masterpiece. It is a mess. [00:29:54] Speaker A: It's a fantastic movie. Having just rewatched it, it's, it's terrific. [00:29:59] Speaker B: It hasn't dated at all. Oh, it's amazing. [00:30:02] Speaker A: The ending's a little tricky because of how things are these days. But as the three of you sit on the roof doing what you're doing, it's not for the reason that people are doing it these days is for. No, it's for the very class based reason that you're doing it. [00:30:15] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:30:16] Speaker A: It's a, it's a, it's, it's a war movie. In essence. [00:30:19] Speaker B: It's very much influenced by bun. Well, but, you know, interestingly enough. So I said, so. Well, what films have you know of Brunwell's Lindsay? He goes, well, to be honest, I've never actually seen one, but I have heard, which is typical of Lindsay Anderson. Lindsay Anderson was a giant in theater and cinema. He's one, he's his, Britain's. I don't even know how to place him. There's not anyone in America that's equivalent. You could say John Ford, but John Ford made all these movies. Lindsay only made five or so, six or whatever. It was very small amount. But he was always working in the theater, always in production. He did so many plays. It was. He was the most working director, I think, in London, but they were. [00:31:16] Speaker A: He had a lot of faith in his actors. [00:31:19] Speaker B: Yes. I mean, he. Well, he always told me that he considered casting to be 90% of it. [00:31:27] Speaker A: Indeed, indeed. [00:31:28] Speaker B: Well, yeah, because I remember mocking him and laughing because he was trying to cast this part in a play. And, you know, I went off, did a movie, came back, and I said, who's playing that pun? He said, I haven't cast it yet. I went, good God. I mean, he goes, I can't make a mistake. You know, I'd rather wait until it happens. And that's interesting. Then he would say that. And, of course, in cinema, it's even more important to get it right. [00:32:01] Speaker A: Oh, everything's in close up, and so a casting mistake. You'll see an extreme close up. [00:32:10] Speaker B: Well, you know, a director like Lindsay, of course, would use actors for different reasons, and he would. He would be able to extract what he needed. But. Because when I went to see him, he had the part of Mick Travis, 90% cast. Now, I didn't know this. I just wandered in, basically. But I. He had sort of cast it. And so when I went in to see him, he started to have doubts. And then he called me in two weeks after I first met him to do a final audition. And when I went in to see him, it was held, you know, in a theater, the Shaftesbury Theatre. They used it for auditions in the day when it was darkest. There was a play on at the time starring Jimmy Edwards, who was this english comic. Not that funny, but he was a sort of big, gruff guy, a schoolmaster type. Lindsay said, have you got the script? And I went, no, I haven't. I haven't read it. He went, oh, for God's sake. And then started screaming at Miriam Brickman. And somebody quickly produced a script. Well, of course, you know, I hadn't. I hadn't read it. I certainly wasn't going to be able to read it in the few minutes I had. And then, of course, I noticed this beautiful girl and I got distracted by. [00:33:42] Speaker A: Her, as one does. [00:33:43] Speaker B: As one does. And I was like, wow, what is she doing here? I thought this was about a boys school. Things are looking up. [00:33:51] Speaker A: Hey, man, the lunchroom scene. [00:33:53] Speaker B: That's right. [00:33:53] Speaker A: Yeah, the lunchroom scene is a great scene. [00:33:56] Speaker B: It's a great scene. And there is a moment in the scene where the stage direction is the mick reaches across the coffee bar counter and pulls the girl and kisses her passionately, which I read and thought, well, this is really my day. And grabbed hold of her and pulled her. And the next thing I know, I am on the floor of the stage, because the next thing, which I hadn't read, was girl slaps Mick viciously, you know, and I ended up on my ass with tears rolling down my cheeks. And I was, like, so shocked at what had happened. And I stood up, and the electricity from this moment was, I mean, very high voltage. And I started to kind of stalk her on the stage, and she had these. She had all the lines. Thank God, because I'd lost the script. She was saying things like, look into my eyes. I have the eyes of a tiger or some. Yeah. [00:35:20] Speaker A: There's growling and growling. [00:35:22] Speaker B: Yes. Well, that's what happened. [00:35:25] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's. It's very. It's very feral. [00:35:28] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:35:30] Speaker A: It's a terrific scene. And it kind of. You kind of feel it beginning to happen. Is that gonna happen? Really? Is that gonna happen? And it gets so it becomes really animal. It's, uh. [00:35:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:35:40] Speaker A: But the movie is filled with really terrific little surreal diversions. [00:35:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:35:51] Speaker A: First they're rolling on the ground, then suddenly they're rolling on the ground naked, and then it's all back to normal. [00:36:15] Speaker B: The first one, the change in the movie comes when the boys are doing a mock fencing scene, and they go from the gymnasium into the squash, which is this shot, because a squash court has a small door into this large blast, and they were swinging their swords, and I'm in the corner and get cut and lift my arm and go, blood. [00:36:48] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:36:49] Speaker B: Real blood. And Lindsay said, that's the change of the film. I want you to do something. I don't want you to do that realistically. I want you to find something. I went, okay, I get it. And. [00:37:09] Speaker A: Blood will be the point, but at the end of the day, blood will be the point. [00:37:14] Speaker B: But it took it out of realism into something else. [00:37:21] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Oh, yes, yes, yes. [00:37:23] Speaker B: And it had to be, as he would say, poetic. It had to be not, you know, blood. Oh, my God. Blood. It's blood. Real blood. [00:37:33] Speaker A: There's. [00:37:34] Speaker B: Off they go on another. [00:37:37] Speaker A: You know, there's another moment when one of the. The teachers, you. You shoot twice, and then you stand over him with Michael. You better plunge it right into him. The next scene, you apologize to him. He's inside a drawer, and he sits up. You do the apology. It's played absolutely straight. [00:37:57] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:37:58] Speaker A: As if this is exactly what happened next. [00:38:01] Speaker B: Well, that. That was the one scene where I said, lindsay, I'd like to talk to you. I said, I think you're ruining this movie by doing this. [00:38:10] Speaker A: Huh? [00:38:11] Speaker B: And he went, now, how is that? And I said, well, look, because I know we've done this, we've done that, and I know it's not real, but I think to have him in a drawer is such a sort of, I mean, it's sort of a cliche thing. And he goes, look here, Malcolm. When the pumpkin turns into a carriage at 12:00 do you believe it? And I went, yes, you do believe it? He goes, there's your answer. I believe it. [00:38:41] Speaker A: This member of the audience bought it then, and he. And he bought it again. [00:38:45] Speaker B: Now, he was all right, because that takes it out of being the norm, you know, it takes it into another dimension, which is Lindsay's great gift. [00:38:57] Speaker A: When I saw the film, I was in high school, and I was. I was part of a select group of brighter, bright students who they showed this movie to. This was in a couple years after it was made, this is the. The mid seventies, and wanted us to, you know, to. Because it was about kids responding. [00:39:14] Speaker B: Critique it or something. Yeah, yeah. [00:39:16] Speaker A: They wanted our, our response to it. One of the questions, one of the questions that they asked us was, what was our interpretation of the fact that part of the film is in color, part of the film is in black and white. And they wanted to know what was the filmmaker after. [00:39:31] Speaker B: Right. And what did you say? [00:39:33] Speaker A: Oh, I don't remember my youthful response. I know that. I think they told us after the fact that it was a money related thing, which, which isn't entirely true. It was money and time, not just money. [00:39:47] Speaker B: Well, what happened was the shooting in the chapel. It was a 14th century building. [00:39:54] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:39:54] Speaker B: And they could not hang lights from the beams in this chapel. [00:39:59] Speaker A: Right. [00:40:00] Speaker B: So. And they couldn't. We didn't have enough hue. You know how the lights were in those days. You had to. There were huge brutes and they. [00:40:09] Speaker A: Too light for color to like for color photography. [00:40:11] Speaker B: Exactly. Exactly. Well, now you can light it on a candle. But. So then, you know, so Lindsay just said, all right, well, we'll have to do it in black and white. [00:40:21] Speaker A: Right. [00:40:22] Speaker B: Because it's a very important sequence, you know. Of course, Chapel is what the whole public school is based around, you know, the church. And so I was sitting next to him when we were watching the dailies, and he said, I heard him say, I do love black and white. He goes, Valerie, this is the script supervisor, Valerie. What are we shooting tomorrow? She goes, oh, you've got that scene in the attic with the head that's the housemaster. And he goes, good, we'll do it in black and white. [00:40:55] Speaker A: There you go. There you go. [00:40:58] Speaker B: It was purely arbitrary. And he said, that'll fuck up the critics. [00:41:05] Speaker A: Sometimes it works with such visual poetry. [00:41:10] Speaker B: Oh, it's incredible. [00:41:11] Speaker A: As a black and white scene, heads into a color scene, or a color scene, suddenly becomes starkly black and white. It's. Yeah, it's remarkably effective, if for no real reason. But, hey, whatever. [00:41:24] Speaker B: God, sky fawkes back again. Hello, Michael. [00:41:29] Speaker A: Hello, Mick. From the moment that you appear on screen, you know, your. Your face is partially covered. [00:41:37] Speaker B: Always an incredible. What an incredible entrance into movies. A wonderful entrance. I met. She was going out with Albert Finney at the time, Anouk Ame, who is this very glamorous star. And I ran into her on the king's road and she stopped me. And, you know, she'd been in eight and a half Fellini, for God's sake. She was like. And then the. You know, that. That love film. [00:42:06] Speaker A: Oh, a man and a woman. [00:42:09] Speaker B: A man and a woman. [00:42:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:42:11] Speaker B: She was wonderful in that. Sexiest woman alive. [00:42:14] Speaker A: Anyway, I'm gonna hit a theme all the rest of the day in my head. [00:42:17] Speaker B: Yeah, it's stuck in my head. He gave me a big hug and she said, malcolm, your entrance into film, any actor would give his right arm. It is the most incredible entrance. And I hadn't even thought about it. You know, I. Just. Playing with this wonderful scarf and all that. [00:42:40] Speaker A: Now, of course, you're covering a mustache. Is this reason? It's not just. It's not just. [00:42:45] Speaker B: No, no, of course there's a reason. [00:42:47] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:42:47] Speaker B: And when he pulls it down, you know, he's grown it in the holidays and has to take it off, which is a brilliant, brilliant moment of what the actual movie's about. It's about, you know, really a class ridden society of one of hierarchy, indeed. And one of dominance of one section over the other. And so he knows it has to come off. [00:43:15] Speaker A: And there's also a strong element of having to hide who you are as an individual. [00:43:21] Speaker B: Yes, that's right. [00:43:22] Speaker A: Squeezing every last bit of you out of it. So that really all. Shut up. You all go to sleep. Right now, it's regiment. I mean, literally, the. Oh, the head guy. Literally regimenting. How long you stand in the shower. Turn now. Turn now. [00:43:38] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:43:40] Speaker A: It's as a statement about a regimented society, and it's not like you watch and you think, boy, that. That's over the top. It feels utterly organic. [00:43:51] Speaker B: It is, it is. I mean, it's a remarkable film. I mean, it is the best film I ever made. And unfortunately, or fortunately, it was the first one, which is staggering as I'm here 60 years later. [00:44:06] Speaker A: Yeah, it's tough to start, really, at that. High up. High up. It really is. That will set you up. [00:44:14] Speaker B: Lindsay said, well, malcolm, that's how you've started your career. You'll never make a better film than this. And I went, oh, yes, I will. But he was right. I mean, I played better parts, but never been in a better film. [00:44:29] Speaker A: Indeed. And how can we really compare them anyway? Really? How do you compare an if to a clockwork orange? [00:44:38] Speaker B: You. You can't really. I mean, you can't. That's why I hate these awards, because awards for actors is ridiculous. Or for films, you know, it's insane. [00:44:49] Speaker A: What do you compare? [00:44:49] Speaker B: I really do hate them, but I know it's part of the Hollywood game and all that, so we have to drum up as much business, you know, and all that. But I really. [00:44:59] Speaker A: Well, we got to keep in mind what. Why did they start these. Why did they start the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences? It was a drama business back in the late 1920s. [00:45:10] Speaker B: That's what it's still about. [00:45:13] Speaker A: Bottom line. One more thing I just wanted to toss out about if Lindsey Anderson called you a brechtian actor. [00:45:25] Speaker B: Oh, you have done your homework. [00:45:28] Speaker A: Oh, I saw that. Okay. Oh, I love that description of you as an actor. [00:45:34] Speaker B: I know. And of course, I said, really? Oh, is that a good thing or a bad thing? I didn't know what hell he meant, you know? [00:45:42] Speaker A: Well, he said, they. They know that you're acting, but the audience believes you anyway. [00:45:47] Speaker B: That's right. That's right. [00:45:49] Speaker A: I love that. That's fantastic. [00:45:53] Speaker B: You let the audience know you're acting, but you make them believe you anyway. [00:45:59] Speaker A: As Gil and I have talked about on the podcast before, talking as producers about actors. [00:46:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:46:06] Speaker A: No, me personally, since Gil's not here, I've never hired an actor to act. I don't act. I want you to be. [00:46:15] Speaker B: That's right. [00:46:16] Speaker A: Every time actors start acting, they're gonna have to cut that out. It's gonna end up. [00:46:20] Speaker B: Well, that's bad acting if you can see it. [00:46:23] Speaker A: Right. But what you really want an actor to do is to be as honest as they possibly can about their deepest emotions with another name and someone else's words in their mouth. [00:46:35] Speaker B: Right. [00:46:35] Speaker A: It's that emotional honesty is. That's what makes scintillating acting. [00:46:41] Speaker B: Right. But there's a lot more to it than that, of course. [00:46:44] Speaker A: Oh. [00:46:45] Speaker B: Because if it was that, if it was just that, then every emotion would be the same. You know, every time you're angry, it's the same. Oh, we've seen that. You know, so there has to be. You know, and it has to be nuanced and craft worked out. Yeah, craft. Exactly. [00:47:06] Speaker A: And there it is. It is a craft. [00:47:08] Speaker B: Because totally, totally. [00:47:10] Speaker A: You don't. You have to feel the emotions. You're not going to be the emotions. [00:47:14] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:47:15] Speaker A: Acting. [00:47:16] Speaker B: Oh, my God. And as a living muscle in your body. You know, I remember the first dailies I saw on if. First dailies I'd ever seen. You know, I had my tongue hanging out the sword fight. And I went, oh, my God. I'm mortified. I said, why didn't you tell me? You're the director. You should have told me. He said, now, malcolm, calm down. I said, we'll have to shoot it again. I mean, he said, well, we're not shooting it again. We can't afford to go back and shoot that. And he goes, there's plenty of bits without you with your tongue. But this is a good lesson. I went, oh, my God. It sure is. Yeah. Thank God I had him as my first director. What an incredible human being he was. [00:48:07] Speaker A: And it's Mick Travis that ultimately gets you. Alex Delarge. [00:48:12] Speaker B: Yes. That film. Stanley saw that film. And I didn't know this at the time, but Christiana, his wife, who is widowed then said, yes, she remembers it very well that Stanley had heard about if. And I mean, it was a big sensation in London because of all the political overtones and the public school, you know, it's such a. I mean, you know, the English, for God's sake. And where did you go to school? Is the first question they asked. And so it's one of the. [00:48:51] Speaker A: When I've been married to a Brit for 35 years, when you get involved with English as an American, it is a staggering thing to learn that one english person can hear another english person speak and know where they were born, where they went to school and knows their whole history. That's. Yeah, yikes. [00:49:13] Speaker B: Pretty much. Pretty much. Yeah, yeah. You know, whether they've been educated or not. [00:49:21] Speaker A: Indeed, Kubrick had actually put aside his adaptation of Burgess's novel because. [00:49:28] Speaker B: Yes, he had. [00:49:29] Speaker A: He couldn't. [00:49:30] Speaker B: He put it aside. Well, this is what Christiana told me. So, you know, he had a projectionist out at the house and they brought the film up to him and he was watching the first. My first sequence coming in, pulling the scarf shaving, talking to, you know, one of my cohorts. Yeah, he hit the intercom and said, relace that. He hit it four times. And then he turned to her and said, we found our alex. [00:50:01] Speaker A: Indeed. [00:50:02] Speaker B: You know, Mick is a pure revolutionary. He's a romantic. Alix is not. He's a pragmatist. He's a very immoral man, of course, but who has a cheeky charm. But Mick Travis's much deeper. Much. He's a sort of romantic poet type. He's a sort of pure revolutionary. You know, there's something very romantic about him, but with Alix, there isn't at all. [00:50:38] Speaker A: Do you see any relation or connection between Alix and. [00:50:43] Speaker B: Well, of course, you know, you can't get over the physicality. I mean, that's something that's there. And also, I've never been an actor to want to put on, you know, putty on my nose. Surely, you know, I literally. And that's why I would never put on 30 pounds or 50 pounds of weight in a part. Because if you can't make the audience believe through your skill that you're now a decrepit, you know, has been or whatever it is you're trying to do, that's, to me, cheating, you know, I'm not a great believer in that. Of course. It's very effective. I'm not saying it isn't. That's just not the way I want to do it, or. I believe in the art form, you know, the craft, as you put it, which is. It is a craft. [00:51:38] Speaker A: Mick is kind of the. Alex is very much the dark side of Mick, whereas Alex is utterly hopeless. And Mick. There's a spark in him. The thing that I wonder about Alex is, at the end of the movie, he. He comes out of it, really note none the worse for wear, in a way. [00:52:06] Speaker B: Well, he says it. I was cured. All right. [00:52:10] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:52:11] Speaker B: Well, so I asked Stanley why he cast me. I go, why did you cast me in this? And he. He didn't really want to say. And he. He said, well, he thought about it, and he said, you. You can portray intelligence on the screen, but Alex is not that intelligent. He said, there has to be an intelligence about him. And that's the element that I think that, for me, was very important to me. [00:52:53] Speaker A: Alex, he's a survivor. He's got Wiles. The thing about Kubrick and casting, he. He was being a. An absolute, uh, monster when it comes to. To control of everything. The way he cast like a control freak. I I. [00:53:15] Speaker B: Are you sure about that? [00:53:17] Speaker A: Yeah. But, you know, the way that I. When I look at, especially in, I don't know, in his later movies, it felt like he. He cast a lot of actors, I think, brilliantly. And, like, I think Ryan O'Neill in. [00:53:37] Speaker B: Do you think that was brilliant casting? [00:53:40] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, and again, it's because Ryan is. Is so. Is surface. He's absolutely surface. And. [00:53:52] Speaker B: But imagine it being played, you know, by another actor. I mean, I don't know. I mean, Ryan, of course, is. You know, he. Stanley used him in the best possible way. Yes, yes, yes. And that's what great directors do. Great directors. I think that that's exactly what they do. [00:54:13] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:54:13] Speaker B: And that changed the emphasis of the film, I think. [00:54:18] Speaker A: Yes. No, no argument. [00:54:20] Speaker B: Yeah, I think the same with Jack, you know, because Jack's performance, I mean, to me, I thought he started off way too crazy. I was like, wow, why would anyone hire this guy? He's nuts. Right from the very first meeting, I just thought there was something missed there. But I would agree, of course, Jack is a great, great actor. [00:54:51] Speaker A: You know, I agree with you there. I think Jack Nicholson is the one where he never. Maybe it seems like he lets Jack just go wherever Jack wants to go, and that's not always. It isn't necessarily. [00:55:08] Speaker B: Well, it's a little shaky. He does. No, Stanley. I mean, why? I really love working with him, actually, because he got something from me which I would never have given Lindsay. [00:55:23] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:55:24] Speaker B: Not in a million years. And I remember taking the script to Lindsay and saying, oh, God, I've only got a week. And now I'm really confused because Stanley refuses to talk about the character. I mean, he'll talk about anything else. The damn lens is. I could care less. But he. He won't talk about the character. [00:55:45] Speaker A: But isn't that indicative of something? [00:55:47] Speaker B: Yeah, of course, of course. But that doesn't help me. [00:55:51] Speaker A: No, of course. No, of course it doesn't. [00:55:53] Speaker B: I give Lindsay the script and he read it. You know, I went back to his flat and the first thing he said as I walked through the door, he goes, thank God I don't have to direct this. And I went, I know it's not your cup of tea, Lindsay, but look, I mean, what do you think? How am I going to play this part? He goes, and this is the genius of the man. He goes, Malcolm, there's a close up of you in if when you open the gymnasium doors to be beaten, you look at the prefix, you smile. That's how you play the part. And I went, oh, that is that's it. That's all I needed. A lot of people that I sort of trust say that Stanley copied huge, huge chunks of if. I think he was completely. I know he saw the movie like, six or seven times. I think he was really influenced highly by that film. I mean, not. There's anything wrong with that. I mean, that's good, isn't it? As I said to him, well, how many times did you see it? He goes, I don't know. I went, five, six. I went, seven. He goes, I don't know. A lot. He's talking a lot. It's a good movie. [00:57:14] Speaker A: It's a very watchable movie. It stands up. It absolutely stands up. Once you were working with Kubrick on a day to day basis, it was to be challenging. And a lot of people know the story about working with your eyes, so we don't have to revisit that, right. It was the thing. It was a fait accompli, it seems, because when he first broached the subject, he had the eye guy standing behind him ready to jump. [00:57:48] Speaker B: No, he showed me a picture of some patient with this. And I went, yeah. Wow, interesting. He goes, no, no. I mean, I went, what? You're not. You don't think I'm going to do that? He goes, yeah, I called this guy and he's coming this afternoon from. From Moorfield's eye hospital to tell you that this is very safe. Of course, that was not true. And, you know, those things scratched the corneas. But, you know, I got over it, so. [00:58:20] Speaker A: Scratched. [00:58:21] Speaker B: No, last thing. [00:58:22] Speaker A: Scratched you twice because you had to do reshoots. [00:58:25] Speaker B: Yeah, I had to do it again at the end. [00:58:27] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:58:27] Speaker B: And I got scratched again. [00:58:29] Speaker A: Indeed. [00:58:30] Speaker B: When you're sitting up, the things kept falling and, you know, I didn't. Because the eye was anesthesized. I didn't feel it, of course, until it wore off. And then it was way worse the first time because we'd done it, you know, it lasted quite a long time, I think ten to 20 minutes. You know, we had to get it in that time. And that was it. [00:58:57] Speaker A: That was physically painful. At least it wasn't humiliating. There's the scene where Aubrey, as Mister Deltoid, is supposed to spit on you. [00:59:08] Speaker B: You are now a murderer, little Alex. A murderer. Not true, sir. It was only a slight, tall chock. She was breathing, I swear it. I just come from the hospital. Your victim has died. You try to frighten me, admit. So, sir. This is some new form of torture. Say it, brother. Sir, it'll be your own torture. I hope to God it'll totter you to madness. If you'd care to give him a bash and the chops that don't mind us, we'll hold him down. He must be a great disappointment to you, sir. [00:59:52] Speaker A: But Aubrey couldn't. [00:59:55] Speaker B: Well, he did, he did like ten takes. He goes, Stanley, I don't have any. [00:59:59] Speaker A: Spit left because he ran out. I didn't realize he ran. So he actually got ten spits at you? [01:00:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:00:06] Speaker A: Oh, Aubrey. [01:00:07] Speaker B: And then of course, what's his name, who was playing one of the cops goes, Stephen Berkoff. [01:00:13] Speaker A: Steven Berkoff actually was the one who began to deliver. Yes. [01:00:16] Speaker B: Volunteered quite gleefully. [01:00:19] Speaker A: Apparently. He said, don't worry, I've got some. [01:00:23] Speaker B: Yeah. Did he? Is that what he said? [01:00:24] Speaker A: That is. That is the on set quote. He said, don't worry, that's his quote. Apparently Stanley asked can you get it on his nose? And Berkoff said yeah, yeah. Can you get it on his nose? [01:00:38] Speaker B: It was pretty vile, but I must say it does look incredible. It's a great scene. And you know, I mean Stanley was. He was pretty on, I must say, because when I read the book I envisaged, for instance, the cat lady, you know, to be an old lady with all these puss pots and be this little old lady. But he went and, you know, hired Miriam Colin. And I went why'd you. Good God. Why did you cast Miriam Colin? Because she could eat you for lunch. [01:01:13] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:01:16] Speaker B: She'S a tough. She goes, you little shit. I mean, you really. And I went, that's pretty cool. Yeah, I really. I saw it. I got it. It was great. I cast Warren. I cast my dad. What was his name? Lovely actor. [01:01:41] Speaker A: Yeah, the actor. [01:01:43] Speaker B: And he went on. He went on to be in Stanley's every Stanley. [01:01:47] Speaker A: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. He became a regular Philip Stone. A terrific. Yes, it little great parts in every Kubrick movie. [01:01:55] Speaker B: Lovely act. [01:01:55] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:01:56] Speaker B: He was in a lucky mandeh with me too. He wasn't in if, but I saw him. Lindsay cast him in the contractor, a wonderful play. David Storey play. And I said to Stanley, you've got to see this guy. He's brilliant. He's really got this doleful, sad kind of look and he looks like he's completely, you know, trodden under. So perfect. And of course I'm glad he used it. It was great. [01:02:31] Speaker A: He did have like a little repertory company of players who work from all the time. [01:02:38] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:02:39] Speaker A: You experienced that problem of working with giants early. [01:02:43] Speaker B: Yes, I worked with some great, great actors. [01:02:47] Speaker A: Yeah. And. And then you. [01:02:49] Speaker B: Incredible. [01:02:50] Speaker A: In great movies early. [01:02:53] Speaker B: Yeah. And then some great, some not so great. But, you know, I worked with, my favorite actor was John Gielgud. I adored him. I always had such a hoot with him. I loved him. And I was going to do the importance of being earnest. He wanted me to play do it. I'm talking early seventies. [01:03:17] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:03:18] Speaker B: And I met him in New York. He was going to direct it in New York with Irene worth playing Lady Bracknell. I mean, how great would that have been? [01:03:26] Speaker A: Wow. Wow. [01:03:27] Speaker B: And John knew it so well. He'd played all the parts, you know, and he just. They wouldn't accept him as the director. They thought he was, you know, old, you know, which I think is ridiculous. But anyway, it was really sad, and I would have done it in a heartbeat because I adored him. I got to work with Lawrence Olivier, who, you know, was a giant, of course, of course. But to my generation, we were kind of against a grown up, sort of anti kind of actorish, like Olivier, you know, it was more Alan Bates generation that bowed down and genuflected to Sir Lawrence. And we did this thing, a pint to play called. It was actually for television, but it was called the collection, and it was with Olivier, myself, Alan Bates and Helen Mirren. And it was an amazing piece. And, you know, I got a call from my agent who said, sir wants to see you. And of course, when his. You knew who that was, and I went, really? Oh, I didn't think I was sir's kind of actor. [01:04:56] Speaker A: You also. You auditioned for the role of Brian Roberts in Cabaret, which you turned. [01:05:01] Speaker B: No, I didn't audition. I was offered it. You were offered Miriam Brickman again? [01:05:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:05:08] Speaker B: Came around to my house and said, look, Liza Minnelli's doing cabaret. And I went, oh, my God, that'll be incredible. You were wrong. And she said, look, they want you for the, you know, the mail. And I went, oh, my God. Um, what song would I have? [01:05:29] Speaker A: What song would I have? [01:05:31] Speaker B: Well, they went, they. Well, they. You don't have a song? And I went, you mean it's a musical and I don't have a song? I don't even get to sing with Liza? They went, no. I went, forget it, forget it. Michael York played it, and he was so good. [01:05:46] Speaker A: A couple years later, you were Richard Lester's first choice for Dartagnan, the Three Musketeers. And that went to Michael York. [01:05:53] Speaker B: How do you know all this? I mean, I hate talking about movies that I've passed on because it's not really fair to the other actors. And this one happens to be the same actor. [01:06:03] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is just funny when the same actor ends up. [01:06:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:06:08] Speaker A: I mean, how much do you hate Michael York? [01:06:11] Speaker B: I love him, actually. [01:06:12] Speaker A: Indeed. [01:06:13] Speaker B: He's a very, you know, I love him. I love him. We ended up in the same club in our later life, and I said to him, isn't it funny? When we first started out, we were competitors. We get to middle age, and it was like, now we're sort of, oh, well, he's rather good. Yeah. Okay. Is he in it? Oh, we're sort of friends. Yes. And then in old age, it's, oh, my God, how lovely to see you. I am so happy we're doing this together. And it's just the way Korea's kind of work, you know, that's just the way it is. He's a really lovely guy. He's been very. He's been very ill, so I hope he's on the mend. [01:07:02] Speaker A: Hope so, too. [01:07:04] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:07:04] Speaker A: So finally let's. You hit the heights, you've achieved greatness, and then suddenly, well, hey, you know, I'm sure when Caligula called, it wasn't the thing that it ultimately became. It had something of a pedigree. The screenplay was developed from an unproduced television miniseries by Roberto Rossellini. [01:07:29] Speaker B: Well, that's news to me. [01:07:30] Speaker A: Yeah, it was. It had actually had a. Yeah, it started out with best of intentions. [01:07:39] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, you may be right. Forgotten that. You know, to be honest with you, I've forgotten a lot about it. I was going to do a sort of one man show about it and sort of come out in a toga. [01:07:52] Speaker A: Oh. [01:07:52] Speaker B: Smoking a cigarette or something with jeans on. I have a lot of funny stories about it, because, honestly, the only way to get through it was by laughing at it. [01:08:05] Speaker A: What did everyone think? As. As you all said? Yes. You all agreed to. [01:08:10] Speaker B: Well, you know, of course, we hadn't seen a script, so I kind of got. As soon as I. I was in it and got the script, I thought, wow, this is terrible. I was so shocked at how, you know, this. Such a great writer produced such rubbish. And, you know, I immediately tried to. I said, you know, and then they'd cast a. The director, you know, it was going to be Nick Roeg. [01:08:42] Speaker A: Was it really? [01:08:43] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, Nick Roeg came up to me in San Lorenzo's restaurant and said, so, I'm not to be your master. I mean, he's such an arrogant fucker. You know, and I went, well, Nick, not on this one, by the way. If we ever do work together, you will still not be my master. But we'll happily work together. Of course. He was a wonderful director and he would have. It would have been a very interesting. [01:09:15] Speaker A: Oh, his don't look now is one of. One of my favorite movies ever. [01:09:20] Speaker B: Incredible movie. Incredible movie. And really not a great book. I thought he made so much more of it than was in the book. [01:09:29] Speaker A: If Caligula had had that sensuality, you know, the. The lovemaking scene between Julie Christie and Donald Sutherland is a. Oh, yeah, it's a wonderful scene because it feels so. It feels so real. It feels so emotionally. [01:09:41] Speaker B: Oh, that's why everybody thought it was real. [01:09:44] Speaker A: Indeed. [01:09:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:09:46] Speaker A: It's. The amazing thing about it is that it's this wonderful sex scene between a married couple. [01:09:52] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. [01:09:54] Speaker A: That's the weirdest thing about it. [01:09:56] Speaker B: But it's so amazing because of what happened to the child and all that. And, you know, it's so brilliant the way the child wears that red and red, shiny red macintosh. It's like a sou'wester or something. It's really. It's an amazing film. [01:10:16] Speaker A: A thunderous ending. Oh, my God. [01:10:19] Speaker B: Yeah, he's a great. [01:10:20] Speaker A: Oh, it will never. [01:10:22] Speaker B: By the way, I loved performance with James Fox and Mick Jagger. Mick was never better in a movie. The best thing he ever did on celluloid, in my opinion. I thought he was amazing. [01:10:38] Speaker A: I agree. And it makes it heartbreaking to hear that Nick Rogue was thought of to direct that movie. It would have been. [01:10:46] Speaker B: The reason he wasn't offered it in the end was, of course, was because he was a too independent and too good and would not be manipulated by Guccioni. [01:10:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:10:59] Speaker B: And that's why. And it's sad, but not that he could manipulate Tinto brass. He didn't. It was a. Cause, an almighty explosion. And, you know, the film was a total fuck up. You know, basically, you know. But I kept saying to gore, well, it's all right gore for you. You know, you took your name off it. I'm now stuck having to do it. [01:11:25] Speaker A: He didn't give back the money, did he? [01:11:28] Speaker B: I don't know. [01:11:29] Speaker A: No, he did not. He did not give back the money. He got paid. 225. He got paid. He got paid a nice chunk of change for those days. [01:11:37] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [01:11:39] Speaker A: Hey, man, how ashamed of you. Really. The casting was. Became an issue. Maria Schneider. And she just passed away recently, unfortunately. Terrific actor. [01:11:51] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:11:51] Speaker A: She was supposed to play Drusilla. She quit while filming her first sex scene. Right in the middle of working with you. [01:11:58] Speaker B: No, she never got. [01:12:00] Speaker A: She never got that far. [01:12:02] Speaker B: No, she got as far as a costume fitting. [01:12:06] Speaker A: Huh. [01:12:07] Speaker B: And coming up to do a little rehearsal. [01:12:10] Speaker A: Oh, the stories people tell. Good God. It was. It was nothing like that. Carry on. Good, good, good. [01:12:17] Speaker B: She went down to the seamstress and, you know, we had Danilo Donati, one of the great designers of all time. He did all Fellini's movies. A genius. [01:12:28] Speaker A: Such talent. [01:12:29] Speaker B: He did the costumes and the sets and, you know, the costumes were literally one stitch here, one stitch there. That was it open. And you wore a diaper underneath it. She had went down to the seamstress and had them sew up the sides of the dress so that the scene was me fondling her breasts because, you know, I'm her brother, basically. And to be fondling her breast to a modern audience is sort of outrageous. But, of course, in Caligula's time, it was quite normal. And they were. The only people you could trust were your family. And that's basically who you stayed with. And I tried to get into the dress and I went, wow. How did you manage to get this? And Tinto brass went ballistic. And he really lost it when he found out what she'd done. He lost it. And she sort of went, fuck you. And he went, fuck you. Get off my satin. I don't know whether she walked or she was fired. I think she basically walked because. So she knew it wasn't gonna. Yeah, so she. I know. [01:14:00] Speaker A: And then for a little while, they thought about Catherine Ross to replace her. [01:14:07] Speaker B: I got a call from Catherine, who said, malcolm, I've been offered it. What can you tell me? And I went, oh, Catherine, God, I'm your America's sweetheart. I'm such a fan. I mean, I'd love to work with you, but I. Darling, not on this. I honestly, from the bottom of my heart, I really think you should not do this. Running around the set naked and everything. I don't. She went, thank you. [01:14:40] Speaker A: That was very, very good of you to spare. To spare her the trip. [01:14:44] Speaker B: Yeah, I wouldn't do that. And I was a fan, a big fan of her. I us. And I knew that was a terrible fit. That was another manipulation of Gujarney. [01:14:54] Speaker A: You did get to work with Gilgud on. On this picture. [01:14:58] Speaker B: You froze. What? [01:15:00] Speaker A: Gilgud. You got to work. [01:15:02] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [01:15:02] Speaker A: Yeah. So you did get. You did finally get to work with John in a feature. There's a story about you and John talking about personal finances that John was complaining about having to do movies like this. [01:15:16] Speaker B: Yes. He, um, he said, my accountant, you know, I I've been told I've got to cut back. And I went, oh, dear, John, do you live this high lifestyle? He goes, good God, no. But, but I can't afford it. The taxes, you know. I said, well, where could you cut back? I mean, you've got this beautiful house. He went, oh, yeah, so I can't leave the house. And I said, and what about you've got this lovely Rolls Royce and a chauffeur? And he goes, I couldn't possibly do without my rose. And I went, well, I think that's what they're talking about when they say cut back. He said, well, they're not paying me very much per diem. And I hear you have a villa. I went, well, I do. And I tell you, I'd love to share it with you. You can have a whole wing of it. He said, oh, so nice. Thank you so much. And he came, stayed with me for two weeks, and it was adorable. I had a wonderful time with him. I adored him. He regaled us all these stories, and, you know, everything was, he was telling me about him and Larry when they did Romeo and Juliet, you know, and they alternative the parts of Romeo and Laertes, and I'm not laertes. Mercutio. [01:16:35] Speaker A: Mercutio. Yeah, yeah. [01:16:37] Speaker B: And he'd always say, larry was far better than me, and he was much more athletic. You know, I just, I just had the voice. And I went, yeah, but what a voice. He said, well, Aries is a pretty good voice, too, but he was so much more athletic, you know, and he'd. [01:16:58] Speaker A: Always sort of, there's something funny about Gilgud saying, I just have the voice. [01:17:03] Speaker B: Yeah, I just had the voice. A voice. [01:17:06] Speaker A: If that's how you see yourself, okay. [01:17:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:17:11] Speaker A: At the time, the top tax rate in England was 83%. So it was pretty brutal to people the kind of money that you guys were making. In the end, the principal cast members, everyone agreed to do a voiceover recording session. Only of Bob Guccioni's inserts would be left out of the final cut. Apparently, no one. You wouldn't do the, you wouldn't do the looping until. [01:17:34] Speaker B: Yes, he was sure. That's true. But. But I, they didn't pay me a big chunk of money. I think something north of $200,000 they owed me. And in those days, that was a lot of money. [01:17:51] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [01:17:51] Speaker B: They owed me, and I refused. So I refused to do anything till first I had a certified check, which they came around with the messenger, and I got. And I had my lawyer there, and I gave it to him immediately. [01:18:06] Speaker A: Oh, God. [01:18:07] Speaker B: Of course, when it came out, it was all put back. [01:18:10] Speaker A: Yeah, right. [01:18:11] Speaker B: And I bumped into Gielgud on Third Avenue. He was shooting Arthur. I didn't even know, you know, and he said, oh, malcolm, have you seen the film? And I went, no, john, I haven't. He said, oh, frightfully good. I've seen it three times, and I paid twice. Yeah. [01:18:33] Speaker A: What? [01:18:34] Speaker B: Yeah, he saw it three times and paid twice. And then somebody must have got to him to say, look here, it's an absolutely scandalous film. You can't go around saying you like it. So he then changed his tune and said, oh, frightful film. I don't know why I did it. Frightful. [01:18:59] Speaker A: Legendary movie critic Roger Ebert, apparently he hated the film. He walked out after 2 hours, and his review started with him calling it sickening, utterly worthless, shameful trash, and, yeah, yeah. And it ended with this movie. Said, the lady in front of me at the drinking fountain is the worst piece of shit I have ever seen. That's the end of this movie review of Caligula. [01:19:24] Speaker B: Now, tell me this. Wouldn't you go if you'd read that review? You'd have gone, I've got to see this movie. I know. It made more money than any movie I've ever done. [01:19:35] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:19:37] Speaker B: Ridiculous. I know, I know. [01:19:41] Speaker A: There's one more little funny, funny little tidbit I'll throw in, and it's the perfect little, little capper to it. After the film was released, Annika Lorenzo, she. Marjorie Lee, Tom Thorson in a. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. She played Lena. Yeah. She sued Bob Guccioni, saying that his handling of the film, mainly his adding of the hardcore sex inserts, had damaged her acting career by associating her with a hardcore porno film. She won her case. She was awarded $4.06 in damages. [01:20:15] Speaker B: I thought she got 3 million. [01:20:16] Speaker A: No, $4.06. [01:20:19] Speaker B: Well, you know, she was a pet, and, in fact, came to my room and offered me the services, certainly not of an actress. You know, she was a very peculiar girl, and bless her, and I think she died, and I think she had not a happy life. The whole thing was horrible, and it was because Guccioni was really a very evil person. [01:20:45] Speaker A: We got to work with you on tales from the crypt. It was the first we got to work together. And you are in one of the most beloved episodes of the whole series, apparently. [01:20:59] Speaker B: And I'm so happy about that. [01:21:01] Speaker A: And we cast you against type. [01:21:03] Speaker B: Yeah, it was a lovely little thing. Was very quick. I mean, all over a couple of days. A very nice director. I'm sure he's passed now, but no. [01:21:13] Speaker A: Elliott Elliot is still with us. Elliot Silverstein. [01:21:16] Speaker B: Oh, I'm so happy. [01:21:17] Speaker A: We just interviewed Elliot several episodes back a couple weeks ago. He is still. He is 90, 95, 96. He is still. [01:21:26] Speaker B: If you talk to him, will you give him my very best? I love working with him, and he was an adorable guy. I've gone sort of to television simply because the writing is better, you know, than most movies. [01:21:41] Speaker A: We are living in a golden age of television. [01:21:44] Speaker B: We really are some amazing, you know, I've done well, I did entourage, which was a groundbreaking comedy show, on HBO, of course, and then. Oh, I did various heroes. The mentalist. [01:22:02] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:22:03] Speaker B: Quite a long running dlmet I did. She plays with blood, Mozart in the jungle, which was a really beautiful show. Very well written. [01:22:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:22:17] Speaker B: I loved it. [01:22:18] Speaker A: A show like that could never appear on network tv. It just couldn't have the audience. And the great thing about streaming is that it has allowed us to tell stories that would never get told otherwise. [01:22:31] Speaker B: And it was stunningly done. [01:22:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:22:34] Speaker B: Beautiful, brilliant cast. I mean, Gael Garcia Bernal is a very great actor, one of the best I've ever worked with, and an amazing guy and everyone in that with Bernadette. In fact, Bernadette and I, Bernadette Peters, we're friends, and she's just come out and done a little part in this western that I've just finished, so I was thrilled with that. And also my ex wife, Mary Steenbergen, she did a little bit, too. So it was kind of fun to do with those goals there. [01:23:10] Speaker A: There's still a lot of work on your horizon. You're. You're. You're heading off. [01:23:13] Speaker B: Yes. No, I'm busy until the end of the year. [01:23:16] Speaker A: Great, great. I, you know, you're. You are. You became an early victim of typecasting. [01:23:26] Speaker B: Yes, I did. [01:23:27] Speaker A: You are. You are. Why? [01:23:30] Speaker B: Taking me a long time, you know, type casting sucks. Yeah. I mean, I understand it. I understand. It's like they want an insurance policy, you know, and movies are expensive and mistakes are expensive. But I would have thought since I had done time after time, which was a very beautiful film, but it wasn't a hit. So if it's not a hit, it doesn't really count, you know? [01:24:00] Speaker A: So it's a shame, because you really, you, you may, you made a great romantic lead. [01:24:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:24:07] Speaker A: Well, you said as we started the interview, when you first got into acting and the spark was lit when you were still at school and you got to do all those plays, you got to act in everything because nobody typecast you. You could be whatever they cast you as. All right, now, we'll end on this note. We'll go a little blue sky. If you could go back in time and you could get to. To get cast in some of the parts that no one would have thought of you for but you could have killed. Are there a couple of things that, man, you wish you could have had because, man, you would have been? [01:24:42] Speaker B: Alan, to be honest with you, I'm not going to answer that because. And the answer is no. Because seriously, if I spent 1 second of my time thinking about what may have been or what I wanted to do or I. What a complete waste of energy that would be and also would make one envious or another element which would be rather seedy, and I don't feel that. I feel incredibly privileged. I've just played the lead in a movie. I'm nearly 80, for God's sake. I didn't even think I would have the energy, but in fact I did. And I had no problem at all. I loved it. It was pretty physical. In fact, one thing, I was knocked to the ground senseless by mistake, I have to say. But I sprung up. And so, no, I really. [01:25:46] Speaker A: No regrets. No regrets. [01:25:47] Speaker B: No. [01:25:48] Speaker A: Good. [01:25:49] Speaker B: And honestly, I've done what I've wanted to do. Maybe not what my agents wanted me to do or what I was supposed to do. I just did what was right for me. And so no regrets at all. I had an amazing time, really, and worked with the most incredible people and still am. [01:26:16] Speaker A: There's a Robert Frost poem that comes to mind. I think of it every day. It's. It ends. But I have promises to keep and miles to go before I sleep. And miles to go before I sleep. [01:26:30] Speaker B: It's a beautiful poem. [01:26:31] Speaker A: That's how I think of me and mine. And that's how I think of you and yours. [01:26:35] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, it's a very nice way to end. [01:26:39] Speaker A: Yeah. I wish Gil could have been more. More actively involved, but. [01:26:44] Speaker B: I know. I'm sorry. [01:26:46] Speaker C: I can't believe how bad this has been. I just been. I'm so frustrated. I'm going to call up the local company after we get off. [01:26:53] Speaker B: Did it just literally. You've been away the whole time, have you? [01:26:58] Speaker C: Yeah. It's been in and out. [01:27:04] Speaker A: I can watch him come and go. [01:27:07] Speaker C: I apologize, Malcolm. I really wanted to be part of this and be in it actively. And I just. [01:27:12] Speaker B: Well, you. You will do it again. [01:27:14] Speaker C: All right. All right. [01:27:17] Speaker B: Because really, we didn't scratch the surface. [01:27:20] Speaker A: Gosh. Exactly. Right. Hey, we kind of focused on two movies, as we kind of said we were going to, but we didn't. [01:27:27] Speaker B: Well, I was really glad that we didn't really do too much about clockwork, because. [01:27:32] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, we. There was. There was a certain. That was really the setup for. For, you know. [01:27:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:27:37] Speaker A: You do greatness, and then, man. And then the shit gets pulled out from underneath you and. [01:27:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:27:42] Speaker A: What did I do? Nothing, man. [01:27:44] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, look, I did have great stuff. You know, I had a pretty average middle. And now we're going into the golden years, baby. It's great. I can't even believe it. [01:27:58] Speaker A: Indeed, to see you still working. There's a yiddish word, KVel. I kvel. [01:28:06] Speaker B: Okay. [01:28:09] Speaker A: And on that note, thank you so much for joining us, Malcolm. [01:28:12] Speaker B: Thank you, Al. [01:28:13] Speaker A: I look forward to doing this with you again. We have so much more ground to cover. And see you next time, everybody. The how not to make a movie podcast is executive produced by me, Alan Katz, by Gil Adler, and by Jason Steinhous. Our artwork was done by the amazing Jody Webster and Jason. Jody, along with Mando, are all the hosts of the fun and informative dads from the Crypt podcast. Follow them for what my old palsy crypt keeper would have called terrible.