Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: This podcast is a collaboration between Costard and Touchstone Productions and the Dads from the Crypt podcast.
It's Chris.
[00:00:09] Speaker B: This is John.
[00:00:11] Speaker A: Nice beer.
[00:00:12] Speaker B: He just wants to spend Christmas with the family.
[00:00:15] Speaker C: Is Daddy coming home with you? We'll see what Santa and Mommy can do.
[00:00:20] Speaker B: But when he gets stuck at the office party.
[00:00:23] Speaker C: Merry Christmas.
[00:00:24] Speaker B: It'll be a holiday Merry Christmas he'll never forget.
[00:00:33] Speaker C: Welcome to the party, pal.
[00:00:35] Speaker B: This Christmas, it's a time of miracles so be of good cheer Only John.
[00:00:41] Speaker C: Can drive somebody that crazy.
[00:00:43] Speaker B: Get ready to jingle some bells and deck the halls with bows over Bruce.
[00:00:53] Speaker C: Willis Run to the coast we get.
[00:00:55] Speaker A: Together, have a few laughs.
[00:00:57] Speaker B: Alan Rickman.
[00:00:58] Speaker C: Do you really think you have a chance against us? Mr. Cowboy? Yippee ki, mother.
[00:01:03] Speaker B: Together in the greatest Christmas story ever told.
[00:01:08] Speaker A: I got some bad news for you, Dwayne.
[00:01:10] Speaker B: Hans.
[00:01:11] Speaker A: Booby. Eat it, Harvey.
Holy.
I'm starting to get a bad feeling up here.
Merry Christmas.
[00:01:24] Speaker B: Die Hard.
[00:01:27] Speaker A: This is their idea of Christmas. I gotta be here for New Year's.
Hello, and welcome to another episode of the how not to Make a Movie podcast. I'm Alan Katz. Way, way back in season two, we sat down with screenwriter extraordinary, our good friend Steve D'Souza. Steve kinda invented the modern action movie. He wrote the scripts for 48 Hours, Commando, Street Fighter, and of course, Die Hard. Die Hard set a new gold standard for action movies. If ever a movie is hero and the actor hired to play them achieve perfection together, Die Hard did it. That was almost in spite of itself. Like Bogey getting Rick in Casablanca, Bruce Willis getting cast as John McClane was a happy accident. Die Hard was based on a novel called Nothing Lasts Forever. That book was a sequel to another film adaptation called the Detective. The Detective, which was made in 1968, starred Frank Sinatra. In 1988, when Die Hard rolled around, Sinatra was 70, a little over the hill for an action hero. So Fox offered it to every star they could think of. Stallone, Eastwood, Gere Khan, Pacino, Paul Newman, Don Johnson, Richard Dean Anderson, even Arnold. But Schwarzenegger said no, because he wanted to do comedy. He ended up doing twins Instead, with Danny DeVito and Ivan Reitman. As things grew desperate, someone floated the name Bruce Willis.
Now, at the time, Bruce was known mainly for Moonlighting with Sybil Shepherd. He was a TV actor in a time when far fewer people made the leap from TV into features. Nonetheless, Bruce passed on Die Hard because of his obligation to Moonlight. But when Cybil shepherd became pregnant, Moonlighting went on an 11 week hiatus, which gave Bruce just enough time to do Die Hard.
Since its release, Die Hard has been critically reevaluated. Now, like I said, it's considered a classic action movie. It introduced the vulnerable, fallible hero, a real change from the invincible James Bond that had preceded John McClane. The other bit of reevaluation, well, that has to do with Christmas.
Even when Die Hard was in development from book to screenplay, the studio was adamant about keeping the Christmas timeframe. It's like they knew what they had in their hands. A Christmas movie in the making. And as the folks who own the rights to White Christmas will tell you, it's pretty damn lucrative owning the rights to a beloved Christmas movie. You know for a fact that it's going to get screened a whole lot at least once a year, and all you have to do is check your bank account.
There's something ironic about Christmas in la, visually, anyway. It flies in the face of what America told itself Christmas should look like. You know, like it does in movies like White Christmas. How does the song White Christmas describe Christmas? Where the treetops glisten Children listen to your sleigh bells in the snow. Yeah, well, we don't get any of that in Los Angeles. And yet, as un Christmassy as LA is, we might be the location for one of the most iconic Christmas movies ever. In this encore episode, Steve will lay out his very good argument with charts and graphs. Even that Die Hard, great action movie that it is, is an even better Christmas movie. Screw you, Bing Crosby. That's what Steve says. Die Hard is more of a Christmas movie than even White Christmas, maybe the most iconic Christmas movie of them all. Hell, it's even got Christmas in the title. But insist, Steve, Die Hard beats White Christmas hands down as a Christmas movie. Oh, that's a bold claim, Steve. Go on, back em up.
[00:05:41] Speaker C: Five years ago, I really started to pick up steam. And then also I would get interviewed. Like people would call, I would get requests for interviews and sometimes on television, like around the country, like, it'd be a Sloan News Day Christmas. So they'd give me five minutes and even as far away as Australia, they'd get in this conversation. And then the American cinema tech did a screening of Die Hard, think it's about five years ago. And they said, are you prepared to talk about it being a Christmas movie? And I said, yes, I will come well prepared, which I'll get to in a moment. But anyway, I mean, the honest answer is, first of all, in the book, it was Christmas. It's based on a novel, and the novel is a sequel to Another novel that was made into a movie with Frank Sinatra went through all this already.
[00:06:26] Speaker A: Right.
[00:06:26] Speaker C: So in the book, Right. So in the sequel, which is called Nothing Lasts Forever, the character is now retired cop, he's 60 something years old and he's visiting his daughter and it is over Christmas and the book takes place over three days. There's a lead up before he even gets on the plane.
So in the entrance interest of, you know, the compression of time, the movie is just dusted on and the time timeline of the movie is a smaller period of time. Now Joel Silver, when we started going the movie, we all worked with Joel. I just saw the thing you wrote about your car ride with Joel the other day in the meeting that never happened. I endured many similar, you know, waiting out in the lobby for hours and hours, all that stuff. But anyway, Joel said, I like that this book is Christmas. When you have a movie set at Christmas, you get plays on television every year, Christmas. So you know, we'll always get residual checks every Christmas in this distant era. In 1988 we didn't anticipate streaming and you know, 24 7, but he was right about that. So I don't think any of us thought about it as being a Christmas movie. We were shooting it until we set foot on the set. Because in keeping with the idea that it's like the day before Christmas, every office is decorated with Christmas decorations. There's Christmas trees and there's like, you know, all the secretaries have little Santa hats on the desk. So it was the flavor, you know, was, was really there. And we leaned in with dialogue. She says, you know, it's Christmas, you know, frosty, you know, radio, you know, like it was, all these remarks lead into it. But then it became this phenomenon. And the other thing I noticed, and I'm going to say I don't normally check this, but somebody said, do you know the, whatever it is, the star meter on IMDb? And I go, yeah, I think I've seen that. And he says, you should look yourself up. So I look myself up and I go, wow, holy cow, look at this.
I'm like up here it's almost like Tom Cruise level. And then when you click, when you click on it, it's like this week, right? So then I widen out and I realized that I'm a flatline my entire life. But I, but I jump up like between Thanksgiving and Christmas because of all the appearances in the press, right? A Christmas movie. So my, so I get mentioned like side stream smoke, you know, so I. So but for A moment, for a moment I exceed. Well, Eric Estrada, I guess, on the.
On the. On the spike. So anyway, famo meter.
[00:08:56] Speaker A: The song at the end helped a.
[00:08:57] Speaker C: Great deal too, didn't it? Oh, yeah. Well, I'm glad you mentioned songs, because when I went to the American Cinema Tech, you said, are you prepared? Are you prepared to talk about is it a Christmas movie? And I said, I get asked so often now, and I've done so many, like, interviews in print and on FaceTime, on television stations and things that I've got all the answers. So I prepared a little chart. So let me tell you how it goes at Cinema Tech. And anytime I do any of these things, they'll say, is it a Christmas movie? And I'll say, how many people think it's a Christmas movie? Now, the number has gone up over the screenings. Like maybe five years ago it was 50. 50. Now it's creeping up. So I'd say, well, before we decide if it's a Christmas movie, we need some kind of baseline. Okay, can we all agree that White Christmas is a Christmas movie? The classic musical with Bing Crosby and Danny K and Vera Ellen has it in the title.
[00:09:55] Speaker A: How much more helpful.
[00:09:57] Speaker C: Everyone agrees. I say, okay, I will now approve Die Hard is more Christmassy than White Christmas. Okay, I have a handy start here.
Can we read this? Maybe. I should probably improve it.
Can you see it here? No, we can't.
[00:10:16] Speaker A: But. But we'll. We'll.
[00:10:17] Speaker C: You'll.
[00:10:18] Speaker A: You'll take.
[00:10:19] Speaker C: I'll PDF. I just. I have to stand up and do a show and tell you. All right, here we go. All right. Right. Christmas movie or not? Checklist.
Die Hard takes place during the Christmas holiday. The entire movie.
[00:10:33] Speaker A: Yes. Okay, yeah, fair enough.
[00:10:35] Speaker C: Christmas only the first and final scenes take place during Christmas ten years apart.
[00:10:41] Speaker A: Huh?
[00:10:42] Speaker C: Right? Because remember, the beginning is World War II and the end. And then they become big stars on Broadway. And the end of the movie is a reunion of the all the soldiers. I think is 10 or eight years later whenever the movie comes out. So we're already more Christmassy by the entirety of the movie.
[00:10:55] Speaker A: Boy. Wow.
[00:10:56] Speaker C: 100%.
[00:10:57] Speaker A: 100%.
[00:10:58] Speaker C: But, okay, the setting of Die Hard is a Christmas party, right?
White Christmas only the final scene is a Christmas party, right? They come out snow, snow, snow. Right?
[00:11:12] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:11:13] Speaker C: Number of Christmas songs. Die Hard has four. Let it Snow, Winter Wonderland, Christmas in Hollis and Jingle Bells.
White Christmas has only two.
White Christmas and Snow Party. Venue threatened in Die Hard. The party then Venue was threatened by tourists in White Christmas, the Party venue. The resort is threatened by foreclosure.
[00:11:45] Speaker A: Right.
[00:11:46] Speaker C: That's why they have to have the reunion there to save it.
There's a broadcaster with a hidden agenda in Die Hard is Dick Thorberg, and White Christmas is Johnny Grant, who they do not. Who keeps it a secret that it's a Christmas party. When he televises, Guy's dead. Solomon, remember, secretly government incompetence and Die Hard, the FBI over overreacts.
Right? Yeah.
[00:12:21] Speaker A: Yep, yep.
[00:12:22] Speaker C: In White Christmas, the Pentagon fires General Waverly.
[00:12:27] Speaker A: Okay?
[00:12:28] Speaker C: Right. He's the old commander who now runs the resort.
The German ringleader in Die Hard is Hans Gruber.
[00:12:37] Speaker A: Of course.
[00:12:37] Speaker C: The German ringleader in White Christmas is Hitler in the opening scene.
[00:12:43] Speaker A: Yeah, the ringleader. Yes.
[00:12:45] Speaker C: Right.
[00:12:45] Speaker A: Fair enough.
[00:12:46] Speaker C: The body count. This is where a lot of people and I get in the movie and I'll make the argument, you know, without the chart, it can't be a Christmas movie. All those people get killed.
And I say, well, how many people get killed? Anyone know? I know 23 people get killed. And Die Hard, that.
[00:13:01] Speaker A: That is the number.
[00:13:01] Speaker C: It's. That was the number that. That is the innocent victims, you know, the security guards, even the FBI people in the helicopter. And of course, all but one of the. All but one of the terrorists who are all but two of the terrorists who are. Who are the invaders who were killed. Okay, Two. Two of them are knocked out.
Okay? And the. Oh, so we have a 23 people body count. And a white Christmas is 26,128. The body count in the Battle of the Bulge, which is the opening scene of the movie, remember, is interrupted by artillery barrage.
And finally, what is the Gift of the Magi? Like selfless sacrifice. You always want something.
[00:13:43] Speaker A: Of course, of course.
[00:13:44] Speaker C: In Die Hard, he runs across barefoot across broken glass.
Right. It's very, like, symbolic.
[00:13:51] Speaker A: Yes, yes, yes.
[00:13:52] Speaker C: In White Christmas, Danny K. Upgrades Vera Ellen's trade ticket. He gives her his first glass ticket.
That's the supple sacrifice does not compare. So if you look at this, it's incontestable with empirical data here that Die Hard is more Christmassy than White Christmas. I rest my case. And I'll provide you a PDF of that chart for your website.
[00:14:14] Speaker A: No, the only quibble I have is that is that last piece. The comparing running over broke broken glass to an upgraded airplane ticket. Because if I had to fly spirit, I would rather run over broken glass.
[00:14:25] Speaker C: Okay, everyone. Yes. Yeah.
It is like running over a broken glass.
[00:14:30] Speaker A: Yeah, There you go.
I'm starting to get a bad feeling. Up here.
Merry Christmas.
[00:14:40] Speaker B: Die Hard.
[00:14:43] Speaker A: This is their idea of Christmas. I gotta be there for New Year's. See you next time, everyone. And happy holidays. The how not to Make a Movie podcast is executive produced by me, Alan Katz, by Gil Adler, and by Jason Stein. Our artwork was done by the amazing Jody Webster and Jason. Jody, along with Mando, are all the hosts of the fun and informative Dads from the Crypt podcast, followed up for what my old pal, the Crypt Keeper would have called terrorist Crypt content.
